Remedial re-stringing/parts questions

[Horseflesh]

I got my hands on a very nice used Takamine G530 for a song, and I am hoping to use it to learn basic maintenance like restringing and working on the nut/bridge. I am maybe putting the cart before the horse since I can't PLAY it yet but I want to learn this stuff!

It's a dreadnought which I believe is intended to take heavier strings. Measuring the existing strings with calipers, I come up with .014, .018, .027, .040, .050, .060. That seems to map well to "heavy" strings per this chart:

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/theh...guitar-strings

OK, so here come the dumb questions... I have found a great YouTube channel for techniques, so my questions are more about parts.

The pins are chewed up from being removed with pliers so I want to replace them. Are pins all a standard size item or do I need to find Takamine pins?

Unless you think I really should stick with heavy strings, I would like to drop to medium for easier playing. Reasonable for this kind of guitar?

If I do reduce string size, it means I have to replace the nut too, and file it properly. Correct? If so, I have the same question about the nuts being a pretty standard item as long as you get the right width, or if I need to find the right one.

And lastly, I have the same question about the saddle. Are they pretty standard sizes, or specialized?

When I look for pictures of a Takamine G series saddle... or just about any acoustic... they look like this, with different break points for some strings:

https://i.imgur.com/2I1Pt0J.png

But my Takamine has a saddle that is totally smooth:

https://i.imgur.com/QF7MUBA.jpeg

I suspect this is wrong not just from comparing to the other photos, but also because the intonation is definitely wrong on some strings.

If anyone can recommend inexpensive parts that are likely to fit, that would be incredibly helpful. I don't want to mess up $100 of bone parts with my first setup attempt on a $50 guitar, you know?

Millions of thanks in advance if you can give me any tips!

[pieterh]

More experienced luthiers and techs will chip in here but my initial thoughts are:

.014 to .060 seems a bit heavy as you say! Given you’re measuring very thin diameters are you sure the measurements are accurate? .012 or even .013 is more common for a dread. Depending on the guitar you should be fine with .012 which is a good balance of playability and ability to drive the soundboard. I would imagine you shouldn’t have to worry much about the nut slots even if you do find you’re dropping two gauges though I guess string height may be affected. Again, experts will chip in here!

Pins are fairly standard though there is some variance. Plastic pins are cheap enough and even wooden ones don’t break the bank - I bought off the shelf ebony ones with abalone dots to replace the plastic ones that were standard on my Guild. They fit just fine.

Don’t worry about the bridge saddle. Compensated saddles are a relatively recent development (and I mean relatively, they’ve been around a while all the same). My Guild from the late 70s had a straight saddle until I installed a Tusq compensated some years ago. A compensated bone saddle designed for your guitar is a good idea, though bear in mind that string size can also make a difference to intonation as I understand it.

[Horseflesh]

I am reasonably sure about the string measurements. It isn't a fancy tool but it is generally within +/- .002" at worst. The measurements of the thicker strings especially was very consistent, and closest to the listed sizes for heavy strings.

But knowing that I probably don't have to worry about the nut slots if I put on light strings is just what I was hoping for, and if the strings I have are lighter than I think, even better.

String height already needs work and I am committed to adjusting the saddle. The action at fret 12 is about 3.5 mm. On the nut side it seems OK, possibly even a bit low which I guess makes sense if someone put on thicker strings and didn't change the nut at all.

I did some more searching and I did find images of this guitar with an uncompensated saddle so I guess it didn't get butchered; it's just old. I wonder if it was born in the 90s, not 00s.

And I rechecked intonation... by putting my Snark in different spots (and listening closely) I satisfied myself that intonation is OK save the A string, which is a bit off, but livable. I can mess with saddle intonation later when I find some cheap replacements to file on.

And, I will just give some pins a shot and be ready to file if needed.

Thanks, this was very helpful!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Horseflesh

String height already needs work and I am committed to adjusting the saddle. The action at fret 12 is about 3.5 mm.

To reduce the 3.5 mm to a fairly standard playing height of 2.4 mm, you'll need to remove twice the difference at the saddle: 2x(3.5 - 2.4) = 2.2 mm, roughly. Your photo suggests you might not have that much saddle height to remove before not having sufficient angle that the strings break over the saddle.

Prior to doing a lot of measuring, change strings to lights or mediums. Few people play heavy strings. The added tension of the heavy strings can alter the neck bow and relevant string heights.

[Horseflesh]

Yeah, I noticed the the lack of saddle height too... figured an ideal setup might not be possible on this instrument for whatever reason. I'll be sure to start with a string change first thing and go from there, thanks!

[nikpearson]

It’s likely the strings are medium gauge: 0.013” to 0.056”, as these are typically the heaviest strings most people use. Depending on the instrument, light gauge strings: 0.012” to 0.053” may be a better choice - they will certainly be easier to play.

The saddle height protruding above the bridge is already quite low so sanding the bottom of the saddle to bring the action down is not currently an option.

Guitar setup involves adjusting: neck relief, action at the nut, and action at the saddle - usually best done in that order.

The tools you’ll need to measure neck relied are: a capo and a set of feeler gauges. Capo a string at the first fret and then also fret it at the body join fret (12th or 14th). The string is under tension and makes a pretty good straight edge. A slight forward curvature (concavity) is desirable - a crude check can be made by tapping the string above the 6th fret - and you can measure this precisely by checking the gap between the 6th fret and the underside of the string using the feeler gauges. Ideal relief is somewhere between 0.1mm and 0.25mm - I’d suggest aiming towards the upper end of this range.

It’s possible that your guitar has too much relief which will be contributing to the high action. It’s essential to check and if necessary adjust this first before making any other changes.

Adjusting the nut slots requires a little skill and files. You can do it with needle files, but specialist nut slotting files are easier. A quick test is to fret each string at the 3rd fret and then tap the string above the 1st fret. There should be a tiny gap which you can easily detect by touch and sound. Too big a gap makes it harder to fret strings in lower positions, no gap is likely to cause fret buzz when the string is played open.

Saddle height can be adjusted by sanding material off the bottom of the saddle. You need to make sure the saddle is kept perpendicular to the abrasive paper. As a previous post mentioned, to bring the action down by a fixed amount at the 12th fret, you need to remove twice that amount at the saddle.

You can use small files to adjust the contact point of the string on the saddle and therefore change the intonation. If the fretted note at the 12th fret is sharper than the 12th fret harmonic then you need to move the contact point back; forward if the fretted note is flat when compared to the harmonic.

Finally, if the action is too high once the neck relief is set correctly and there is no saddle height left to adjust, there is the option of planing/sanding down the bridge to leave more saddle protruding. This isn’t something you’d want doing on an expensive instrument but it can help achieve a good action on an an inexpensive instrument. You can also add slots for the strings behind the saddle which will improve the string break angle without having to lower the saddle further. This can be done with a hacksaw blade and/or small files.

The information is quite basic but hopefully makes a good starting point.

[Horseflesh]

Thanks for the help Nik!

I've checked the relief and it seems to be OK... there is a very very slight bow so that the middle of the fretboard is less than 1 mm lower than the rest of it. But, that's with the current strings. I assume I will need to adjust the truss rod once restrung.

I've also carefully inspected the fretboard and checked each fret for buzz. Everything looks good, no protruding frets that I can find.

I have a capo and light .012 strings on the way, as well as new pins (for looks) and a bone nut and saddle (just in case). I am optimistic I won't have to mess with the nut, but I have thin diamond files. I looked at getting the proper tools but they are spendy!

My wife's new Orangewood arrives Saturday so I can try to fix up this poor old Takamine.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, this is a pus 1 on the strings - mediums 13-56 is usually as heavy as any dreadnought should be made to wear.
D'addario EJ17. or Martin MA550.

Firstly, I'd replace the strings, then leave the guitar for a couple of days to see what happens to the action - if, indeed it is wearing Heavies, then with mediums the neck should straighten out and the action should reduce.

Measuring relief is best done with Spark plug feeler gauges - inexpensive.

Most measure from capo on 1st fret (held with a capo) to the fret which coincides with the body join, then measure either the gap between the bottom of the string and the height of the 6th or 7th fret.

I play mostly Collings and they recommend .005" -yup 5 thousandths of an inch but I prefer more like about .008"

(1 m/m is WAY too high)

Note: this is the relief of bow of the neck - NOT the action, although adjustment of the truss rod will affect the action slightly.
Relief - or the amount of bow is to enable all strings/notes to play cleanly and easily.

Action is the distance between fret top and string at the 12th fret which most suggest 3/32" (.094" - 2.4 m/m) on the bass and 1/16" (2/32" -.063" -1.6 m/m) on the treble.

We measure at the 12th fret because that is the middle of the scale length.

Hope that helps.

[Horseflesh]

> (1 m/m is WAY too high)

I should have said how I was measuring relief. I simply had a long straight edge on the fretboard, and looked for how much of a gap showed under the edge at the middle of the fretboard. This was a method I saw in a video by a luthier. I wasn't measuring relative to strings as you described. After restringing I will try the method you listed too, that's new to me, thanks!

[Horseflesh]

Tonight I restrung and adjusted action on the ol' Takamine. The end result was a nice improvement in playability, but I definitely could have done some things better.

I started by popping out the saddle and replacing it with an inexpensive compensated bone saddle I found on Amazon. I filed it down by about 1.1 mm and called it a day. I wasn't sure what exactly the string break would look like and didn't want to overdo it. The saddle ended up being a couple mm narrower than the OEM saddle, but it's fine. (The intonation turned out good, too... clearly better than with the OEM saddle. Cool.)

I also replaced the marred white plastic pins with some wood pins. They all needed substantial filing to fit, but it worked out fine. It isn't traditional I guess, but I like the look of dark pins instead of white ones.

I cleaned up the neck with #00 steel wool, and oiled the fretboard. I decided against using mineral spirits, it wasn't that dirty.

For strings, I used Ernie Ball phosphor bronze 012s, and this is where I made some mistakes. For one, I did not wind the strings properly around the posts. They need a couple more turns. They are holding on for now, but I expect they will slip out of tune too easily. And, I broke a string. I made a careless mistake and picked up the wrong string for D, which popped when I was bringing it up to tune. The old string was OK though, so I put it back in.

I am sure there is a technique to winding a string on the post that I missed... time to order a new pack of strings and find a couple of new videos.

The neck seems to be totally flat now as opposed to having very very slight relief with the heavier strings. We'll see what happens after a few days under tension. Currently, I don't find any fret buzz or other problems.

The combination of slightly lower action and much lighter strings made the guitar feel very different... it is much much easier to fret now. So, while I could have done better, this is very encouraging. I'll get some new strings, maybe shave that saddle down a little bit more, and re-examine relief.

Thanks for going on this emotional rollercoaster with me, LOL.

[pieterh]

Good job! Leave the neck a while - although a slight bow is generally desirable for playability if it works for you then go for it! I have a Guild that recently had a setup: the neck was straightened slightly and it plays better than ever. Once your guitar has settled in you can tweak the truss rod (loosen it very slightly) in order to allow the string tension to give it a slight bow away from the strings.

[Horseflesh]

Tonight I lowered the saddle a bit further and re-restrung the guitar, replacing the string I broke (and winding the posts correctly). The saddle is now about as low as it can go on the low strings before I get worried about strings touching the bridge. On the high strings, there is a tiny bit more to work with.

I measured the action at the 12th fret (no capo) and it is 2.0 mm at the low E and actually the same at the high E... not a bit lower as expected.

As best as I can guess, the cheap saddle I got (which was a couple mm too short) seems to have the wrong radius, which can't be helping.

I found what I think is the correct saddle (width and radius) so next time I feel like taking a guitar apart instead of playing it, I will mess around with that. But even with the medium action it has now, it is easier to play than when I got it. I'll try not to worry too much about a few tenths of a mm. (But I will recheck the neck in a few more days.)

Nowhere to go on the low strings


Almost out of saddle on the high strings


Saddle seems like it should curve down more on the high strings

[nikpearson]

You appear to have very little saddle projecting above the bridge and that is giving a very shallow break angle for the strings over the saddle.

Before making any further adjustments I’d urge you to measure the neck relief accurately with feeler gauges. If there is too much now then straightening the neck will lower the action and you’ll be able to have a little more saddle height.

If the relief is good then there’s the option of adding string slots between the bridge pin holes and saddle. This is relatively easy to do with a fine jigsaw blade (with your hand, not a jigsaw!) before refining with needle files.

An action of 2.0mm is always too low for me on the low-E. You can get away with this for delicate finger-style playing but I’ve yet to play an instrument that will take some digging in with finger nails or a pick with an action that low. Bring the action up a little will give you more saddle projection and a better break angle. This angle is probably not as critical as many think (string height above the soundboard may be more important) but it is currently very shallow indeed.

Good luck with your adjustments.

[Horseflesh]

Thanks for the extra info Nik! That all makes good sense to me. Since I un-strung it last night I will let it setting a few more days and check relief. I do have the proper feeler gauges for that.

The string height/break on this instrument sure don't cooperate like others I have seen in videos, but if I can make it fit for beginner's chords at least, then it's mission accomplished.

[Horseflesh]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Your photo suggests you might not have that much saddle height to remove before not having sufficient angle that the strings break over the saddle.

I'm following up to an old thread I started because this story has a happy ending that I wanted to share. And Charles correctly spotted that the key issue holding this guitar back was the saddle height and bridge geometry.

After tolerating my mediocre setup for a too long I decided to get some help, and took the Fifty Dollar Takamine G530S in for some help. I actually rolled the dice on a bargain luthier on Craigslist instead of going to my nearby elite custom shop... (Hey, it's still a $50 guitar, if it needed $200 of work I'd just put that towards a new guitar.) We had a good chat and I told him I was up for whatever he thought was needed to get it playing right. I left it with him feeling optimistic.

My Craigslist luthier found, as Charles saw, that the tall saddle/bridge was an issue. He was able to get things in order by lowering the saddle, making notches in the bridge (as @nikpearson had suggested), and hand-filing new ridges on the saddle to give the strings the right break.

This is way beyond a "setup," but I believe it was the right move. The action is nice and low now, the frets are even leveled and crowned, it has lighter strings, it is MUCH easier to play, and it didn't cost much. If I had a little more confidence I might have tried this work myself but I was glad to have it done.

Someday I'll earn a nice guitar but it is also kind of satisfying to give a new lease on life to an old instrument.

(The only thing that confuses me is WHY was this guitar made this way, with such a high bridge and saddle? It's certainly not an elite guitar but this seems to be conservative to the point of absurdity.)