The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:48 AM
ac ac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,660
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slibbinas View Post
I saw doubts that Lava is not made of carbon fibre. No doubt, it is made from CF for shure.
Carbon fibre is know to be condctive to electricity. I took multimeter and measured the resistance from inside of the quitar andI got 200oM resistance when probes were in 1cm distance from each other. I did not measure from outside because outer paint is not CF I suppose

Traditional carbon fibre has a lot lower resistance, but do not forget that Lava is made of composite that specifications can vary from traditional layered CF. For example 3D printer filaments with CF (~20%) are not conductive at all. So Lava is definitely made of CF composite or close to 100% CF.

BTW. Anyone knows how to change the LiOn battery in Freeboost version? It may be needed in a year or two when the battery gets old. It is good to know in advance.
There is a video out there somewhere that Lava Me produced which showed a portion of their production process. They clearly use pellets which are melted and quickly form the guitar by some liquid injection process using a mold.

Since it is referred to as carbon fiber, I assume the pellets contain carbon fiber particles or shreds or there is some other form of carbon in the raw pellets.

But Lava Me is definitely not made from CF as we have known it to be used by builders like CA, Emerald, Rainsong, formerly Blackbird, and several others. They use CF cloth as the carbon foundation, not melted pellets.

I once asked that question long ago but there were no answers as to what type of pellets they use as shown in their video, what the strength and acoustic properties were, and how those properties compared with CF fabric.

But even if it is not equal in all respects to CF fabric, if the results are increased strength, freedom from moisture, and good acoustic properties, it really doesn't matter at all. In fact, it might be a preview of where composite instruments will evolve to reach a market with players who will never put out the cash for the more expensive composite guitars that exist.

I would think the Lave Me process using pellets would produce an acceptable product with much less expense and a reasonable profit margin even with a lower retail price. Cheaper materials + hand labor reduced to a minimum + reduced build to shipping time, will be attractive

However, the trade off is that custom options would appear to be few or none. What they produce will have to have a universal appeal for players not too concerned about the many details as discussed daily on AGF.

If it's an overall good guitar with decent sound and physical properties, hopefully there is good market for this. If so, if they grow, maybe they will be able to expand the product line in ways to attract even more players.....nylon string.....nut width, etc.

I think the built in sound effects system is an attractive move also---plus, it's invisible. Nice.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-24-2019, 01:05 AM
slibbinas slibbinas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac View Post
There is a video out there somewhere that Lava Me produced which showed a portion of their production process. They clearly use pellets which are melted and quickly form the guitar by some liquid injection process using a mold.

Since it is referred to as carbon fiber, I assume the pellets contain carbon fiber particles or shreds or there is some other form of carbon in the raw pellets.

But Lava Me is definitely not made from CF as we have known it to be used by builders like CA, Emerald, Rainsong, formerly Blackbird, and several others. They use CF cloth as the carbon foundation, not melted pellets.
I am shure they use kind of epoxy/resin and shreded plain fiber. There are no layered structure or pellets seen. It is looks like molded plastic that reminds me the way of making 3d printing filaments infused with carbon fiber. I think this is the same way of producing the material they call Airsonic.. or what ever they call it...
I mean that Carbon Fibre definition does not define the way it is produced, or epoxy used. Only the conductivity tells that it has a lot of carbon fibre. So technically it is CF if it has carbon and conductivity.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-24-2019, 05:17 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 3,427
Default

After curing the epoxy used by prepreg CF manufacturers and likely the epoxy chosen by manufacturers such as CA for plain CF fabric can handle very high temperatures before becoming plastic (soft). These days you would have to special order something that wasn't good to 150C (302F) and likely what is in your typical CF guitar is good to a much higher temperature. This is useful if you leave your guitar in your car in the sun.

I wonder what is the plastic transition temperature for the resin Lava is using for injection molding.
__________________
Jon Fields

RainSong CO-PA1100NS, TKL 8975, taped passive HFN
RainSong V-DR1100N2, TKL 8810, no pickup
1 QSC CP8 high/behind, duo gigs no mixer
2xSM58>XLR-Y>CP8, HFN>HXStomp(jf45ir)>TRS>CP8 3.5mm
jonfields45@gmail.com
www.justsoduo.com

jf45ir free custom acoustic guitar IR generator: http://acousticir.free.fr/spip.php?article136

Last edited by jonfields45; 12-24-2019 at 06:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-24-2019, 03:56 PM
ac ac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,660
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slibbinas View Post
I am shure they use kind of epoxy/resin and shreded plain fiber. There are no layered structure or pellets seen. It is looks like molded plastic that reminds me the way of making 3d printing filaments infused with carbon fiber. I think this is the same way of producing the material they call Airsonic.. or what ever they call it...
I mean that Carbon Fibre definition does not define the way it is produced, or epoxy used. Only the conductivity tells that it has a lot of carbon fibre. So technically it is CF if it has carbon and conductivity.
In the Lava Me video I viewed a year or two ago, they actually showed the blackish pellets that were used in the process in some container. They were the same size pellets I am familiar with from a past life, that are used by manufacturers of various types of medical devices.

The pellets would be stored in large bins made of some type of clean fiber reinforced nylon or other synthetic cloth. The pellets were fed continually into some fairly complex line equipment where they were melted and extruded using high pressure.

The video showed the Lava Me mold and I don't recall how much of the process, but it was clear that at some point that what becomes the body of the guitar (and I 'think' the rest of the guitar as well) is first liquefied pellets.

I can only guess they are something like you find here
https://www.m-chemical.co.jp/en/prod...1210_7508.html
but in the Lava Me video they looked cleaner and more uniform than the pellets from this supplier.

I don't have the time to track down that original video, but I'm sure it still exists out there somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-24-2019, 05:31 PM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 138
Default

À search for 'plastic' and 'pellet' and 'carbon' returns lots of info about the industrial processes for ABS (and other plastics) infused with carbon or glass or wood or other fibres. (Différent from resin pre-impregnated carbon fabric, or carbon fabric soused with resin)

The reinforcement makes the host material stronger, more durable and more resilient. Good features for industrial and consumer products like car bumpers, wheely bins, roto moulded kayaks, etc.

The raw material is bulk shipped as granules or pellets that are melted for molding or extruding etc




Specific formulations been found suitable for ukuleles (Enya Music, Outdoor Ukulele), banjos (Gold Tone Music), and guitars (LAVA Music).

Lava Music has gone a step further to design lattice pattern tops they say are thin, strong, resonant and musical.



And probably faster and cheaper to make. Moderate cost is important in Lava Music's primary China and south east Asia markets where many customers are newly able to afford to buy some of the things commonly available in more developed markets. (what percentage of 3-4 billion people do they need to prosper?)


Since very few of their customers have the experience and expectations of guitar customers in developed markets, LAVA and Enya are free to define the local market expectations:
* commodity and simplification approach to encourage inexperienced customers
* sleek styling to show family and friends the money is well spent
* good music performance (and excellent to follow)
* bonus innovations like acoustasonic
* many accessories bundled (often case, strap, tuner, spare strings, etc) to offer a price 'ready to play'
* heading off warranty complaints by applying some materials that are more durable (laminated, HPL, ABS, carbon, etc) that are more durable than solid wood in humid equatorial summers and dry winter climates.

Fascinating to marketing and manufacturing geeks.

Cheers.

Last edited by casualmusic; 12-24-2019 at 05:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-24-2019, 06:17 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,515
Default

MACAFFERI LIVES! At least that's what it sounds like to me. A serious advancement on an early composite instrument.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-26-2019, 04:53 AM
slibbinas slibbinas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post
À search for 'plastic' and 'pellet' and 'carbon' returns lots of info about the industrial processes for ABS (and other plastics) infu....

Cheers.
Very good explanation!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-27-2019, 03:32 PM
Methos1979's Avatar
Methos1979 Methos1979 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seacoast, NH
Posts: 4,802
Default

What is the total length, case and all? How about just the guitar?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:17 AM
slibbinas slibbinas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 4
Default

If you have a question where to keep the pick while you are not using it, then this is for you. I designed 3D printed thing that helps

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4073309
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-29-2019, 08:34 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,515
Default

Slibbinas;

That's really clever, and I would think marketable. Thanks for sharing.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-03-2020, 09:41 AM
oscarvan's Avatar
oscarvan oscarvan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methos1979 View Post
What is the total length, case and all? How about just the guitar?
Case is 38", Guitar is 37"
__________________
CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-03-2020, 09:42 AM
oscarvan's Avatar
oscarvan oscarvan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 213
Default

So I don't think I ever wrote up my evaluation of the LAVA ME 2.



The Good:

It's cool. Well made, solid. Good fret work, tuners. Nice case. Not a toy, and not crappy.

Sounds pretty darn nice for what it is. Blindfold someone and they may think it's a lower price level D of some sort.

The on board effects are pretty cool.

The Meh:

Body shape... hard to get it to stay in your lap. There's no "waist" and it's slippery.

And this is personal to me.... 43mm nut. That's tight and too tight for me. So I let it go.....
__________________
CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog

Last edited by oscarvan; 01-03-2020 at 03:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-17-2020, 06:51 PM
Allan Tan Allan Tan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7
Default Lavame2

Quote:
Originally Posted by byudzai View Post
Few thoughts:

1) We all love carbon fiber, but do we know why? I'm sure many modern synthetic materials would be perfectly adequate, or even superior to CF, for guitar-building.

2) I don't like that the hole is too small to reach a hand through.

3) I want an orange one. :-)
Indeed the sound hole is too small
I bought one in Jan 2020
And this morning when I took it out to play
Realised the cable was dangling , the tape came off
I wonder how the factory install all those items inside .
Had wrote to their service department about it .
See what they say .

Allan
Singapore
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-17-2020, 09:19 PM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,058
Default Lava Me Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Tan View Post
Indeed the sound hole is too small

I bought one in Jan 2020

And this morning when I took it out to play

Realised the cable was dangling , the tape came off

I wonder how the factory install all those items inside .

Had wrote to their service department about it .

See what they say .



Allan

Singapore

Maybe they used machines to fix the internal.

Is yours a Lava Me 2 or Lava Me Pro?
__________________
Just enjoy playing your guitar!

Martin 00-15M / Yamaha FS5 MIJ Red Label / Faith Venus Blood Moon Burst / Taylor GS Mini Koa / Martin Dread Junior 2 / Yamaha CSF3M / Lava Me 2

Last edited by Cool555; 02-17-2020 at 10:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=