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  #16  
Old 05-09-2021, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
That looks great!
I agree. If RainSong is doing this under the clear coat it is especially impressive. Don’t know for sure but I’m pretty certain they can only do this for the top because the backs are rounded. No idea what the up charge is either.
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  #17  
Old 05-10-2021, 06:40 AM
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I agree. If RainSong is doing this under the clear coat it is especially impressive. Don’t know for sure but I’m pretty certain they can only do this for the top because the backs are rounded. No idea what the up charge is either.
Those are beautiful! If they made a cutaway dread, I'd be ridiculously tempted. I would love to compare one of these to my H-OM, which I find to be warm and full-sounding.
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  #18  
Old 05-10-2021, 09:51 AM
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Those are beautiful! If they made a cutaway dread, I'd be ridiculously tempted. I would love to compare one of these to my H-OM, which I find to be warm and full-sounding.
To your thinking I would love a non-cutaway OM but I just don't think it will ever happen due to their layup approach. When it comes to cutaways nobody does it better than Emerald- guess you will find out very soon!
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  #19  
Old 05-10-2021, 11:14 AM
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To your thinking I would love a non-cutaway OM but I just don't think it will ever happen due to their layup approach...
Could you explain? I too would love a non-cutaway OM...
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  #20  
Old 05-10-2021, 12:32 PM
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Could you explain? I too would love a non-cutaway OM...


It’s because of the way RainSong uses aluminum molds- very expensive. I read that here and will see if I can find that info.
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:40 PM
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It’s because of the way RainSong uses aluminum molds- very expensive. I read that here and will see if I can find that info.
Oh ok. What you're saying is that to build a non-cutaway OM, they'd have to build a new aluminum mold - yes?
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  #22  
Old 05-10-2021, 01:13 PM
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How was the new ballpark?
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  #23  
Old 05-10-2021, 02:06 PM
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Oh ok. What you're saying is that to build a non-cutaway OM, they'd have to build a new aluminum mold - yes?
Basically yes. I'm not an engineer so I can't speak too much on this. I have just read it and I think RainSongs are created in 3 different processes; the tops are baked separately from the back and sides mold. Later the top is glued on and the neck is glued and bolted on.

If I'm wrong please correct me RainSong aficionados!
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  #24  
Old 05-10-2021, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
Basically yes. I'm not an engineer so I can't speak too much on this. I have just read it and I think RainSongs are created in 3 different processes; the tops are baked separately from the back and sides mold. Later the top is glued on and the neck is glued and bolted on.

If I'm wrong please correct me RainSong aficionados!
I don’t know all the techie details, but I spoke with Ted at LAGS, and he said the molds Rainsong uses are in the $50K range, and a mold would be required to add a cutaway to a dread. I can only imagine the same is true for a non-cutaway OM.

Re the Emerald, new shipping notice in my e-mal from UPS, should be tomorrow. We’ll see.
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  #25  
Old 05-11-2021, 04:36 AM
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How was the new ballpark?
Wonderful... Opening day today. Love how the ballpark is cut directly into the hill of the city. They even have a "Worcester Wall" with seats, similar to the Green Monster only this wall is a retainer wall.

Lovely park and well designed. It also has a new brewery as well.

Fun day ahead!!
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  #26  
Old 05-11-2021, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post

What I don't know is how thick the spruce top in the Vintage Series is in comparison to the veneer of the Emeralds. in other words, if we were putting this into the form of a question, "Do we even call the new spruce RainSong tops a veneer, or is it also a factor in considering tonal impact of the top?".


=> Wikipedia wood veneer


The thickness of spruce or cedar single top soundboards range from 2.5-4.0mm or 0.10-0.16" or 3/32-5/32". Carbon fibre sound tops range from 0.10" single top to 0.4" double top.

The thickness of cabinet and furniture grade fancy wood veneers are 0.018-0.027" (commonly 1/40") or 0.5-0.6mm. Comparable to cereal box card at 0.022" business cards at 0.016", or five sheets of printer paper.


Exotic veneers on Emerald guitars:
• Emerald veneers are cabinet grade veneers (0.5-0-6mm) approx the thickness and floppiness of cereal box cardstock.
• Alistair says it doesn't affect the tone of their guitars. Owners generally agree.


Spruce layer on RainSong SFT Vintage and Nashville series guitars
• The spruce layer shown in this video and the photo on Facebook (I don't know how to link the photo) is clearly a stiff layer and not a floppy furniture type veneer. The Facebook photo shows a stack of rough cut soundboards including one double edge overcut that would be impossible on a 0.5mm veneer. It's likely 1.5-2.0mm as used on each layer of double top wood guitars. Or 3X as thick as furniture veneer.
• RainSong calls it a spruce layer not a veneer.
• RainSong says the SFT spruce layer affects the sound of Vintage/Nashville series guitars. Owners like the sound and say it's a bit different from all composite guitars.
• And... if you want a guitar to sound a bit like a spruce top why not add a spruce layer to help it along?
• $450 upgrade from CO series to Vintage series

PS. Yeah, technically a "veneer" can be much thicker than 1/40" fine furniture grade stuff example 1/8" rough layers used to make construction grade plywood.

PPS.

Cheers.
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  #27  
Old 05-11-2021, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post


=> Wikipedia wood veneer


The thickness of spruce or cedar single top soundboards range from 2.5-4.0mm or 0.10-0.16" or 3/32-5/32". Carbon fibre sound tops range from 0.10" single top to 0.4" double top.

The thickness of cabinet and furniture grade fancy wood veneers are 0.018-0.027" (commonly 1/40") or 0.5-0.6mm. Comparable to cereal box card at 0.022" business cards at 0.016", or five sheets of printer paper.


Exotic veneers on Emerald guitars:
• Emerald veneers are cabinet grade veneers (0.5-0-6mm) approx the thickness and floppiness of cereal box cardstock.
• Alistair says it doesn't affect the tone of their guitars. Owners generally agree.


Spruce layer on RainSong SFT Vintage and Nashville series guitars
• The spruce layer shown in this video and the photo on Facebook (I don't know how to link the photo) is clearly a stiff layer and not a floppy furniture type veneer. The Facebook photo shows a stack of rough cut soundboards including one double edge overcut that would be impossible on a 0.5mm veneer. It's likely 1.5-2.0mm as used on each layer of double top wood guitars. Or 3X as thick as furniture veneer.
• RainSong calls it a spruce layer not a veneer.
• RainSong says the SFT spruce layer affects the sound of Vintage/Nashville series guitars. Owners like the sound and say it's a bit different from all composite guitars.
• And... if you want a guitar to sound a bit like a spruce top why not add a spruce layer to help it along?
• $450 upgrade from CO series to Vintage series

PS. Yeah, technically a "veneer" can be much thicker than 1/40" fine furniture grade stuff example 1/8" rough layers used to make construction grade plywood.

PPS.

Cheers.
Great sleuthing Casual! Thank you! This is somewhat what I knew I had read before but only better.
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  #28  
Old 05-11-2021, 07:14 PM
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Thanks Casual....
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  #29  
Old 05-12-2021, 09:00 AM
boneuphtoner boneuphtoner is offline
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Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post


=> Wikipedia wood veneer


The thickness of spruce or cedar single top soundboards range from 2.5-4.0mm or 0.10-0.16" or 3/32-5/32". Carbon fibre sound tops range from 0.10" single top to 0.4" double top.

The thickness of cabinet and furniture grade fancy wood veneers are 0.018-0.027" (commonly 1/40") or 0.5-0.6mm. Comparable to cereal box card at 0.022" business cards at 0.016", or five sheets of printer paper.


Exotic veneers on Emerald guitars:
• Emerald veneers are cabinet grade veneers (0.5-0-6mm) approx the thickness and floppiness of cereal box cardstock.
• Alistair says it doesn't affect the tone of their guitars. Owners generally agree.


Spruce layer on RainSong SFT Vintage and Nashville series guitars
• The spruce layer shown in this video and the photo on Facebook (I don't know how to link the photo) is clearly a stiff layer and not a floppy furniture type veneer. The Facebook photo shows a stack of rough cut soundboards including one double edge overcut that would be impossible on a 0.5mm veneer. It's likely 1.5-2.0mm as used on each layer of double top wood guitars. Or 3X as thick as furniture veneer.
• RainSong calls it a spruce layer not a veneer.
• RainSong says the SFT spruce layer affects the sound of Vintage/Nashville series guitars. Owners like the sound and say it's a bit different from all composite guitars.
• And... if you want a guitar to sound a bit like a spruce top why not add a spruce layer to help it along?
• $450 upgrade from CO series to Vintage series

PS. Yeah, technically a "veneer" can be much thicker than 1/40" fine furniture grade stuff example 1/8" rough layers used to make construction grade plywood.

PPS.

Cheers.
Great work! It seems that RainSong and Emerald have diverged in their approaches here. I haven't done a true apples-to-apples comparisons with RainSongs as the two I compared with and without the veneers were different body sizes, but when my new X30 arrives, I will be able to compare it against my red carbon version.
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  #30  
Old 05-12-2021, 02:29 PM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Thanks guys. Good to hear others are interested in details.


Forgot to add this about veneer/layer vs sound:

Exotic wood veneer on Emerald guitars:
• Veneer is probably too floppy to vibrate and add to sound volume
• Veneer is probably too thin to dampen the sound volume.
• Veneer density is probably close to the density of the resin and paint

Spruce SFT layer on RainSong Vintage and Nashville guitars:
• Spruce layer is solid enough to vibrate and contribute to the sound
• Pickguard indicates the spruce layer is easier to abuse than CF


And more from the Youtube video:

• The opening side view shows the thickness of the spruce top layer (owners can look and confirm on their guitars)

• The spruce layer is attached directly to a carbon fibre layer, and looks as thick or thicker than the CF.

• The worker reaches into the freezer for two pieces of pre-cut pre-impregnated CF. Vidιo shows one piece being added to the guitar top. (it's not clear if both pieces are for the same guitar or for two guitars: a trade secret detail not important to us as customers).

• Looks like the SFT layers are directly attached (fused hence "Soundboard Fusion Technology") and not a "double top sandwich with spacer" design used on the CO and other series.

• The layers are put in a frame to maintain flatness. (Note the bridge inner reinforcement plate.) The assembly is put in the autoclave curing oven and attached to a vacuum pump to suck the layers together. Oven temp shows 150*F.

• Other: CNC robot work on a guitar neck. Various stages of assembly.

• Other: Glimpse of aluminium body mold(s) at 3.43 and 6.16 minutes.


Cheers.
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2018 RainSong H-DR1000N2/T copper burst - carbon fibre
2016 CA Cargo black - carbon fibre
2016 Fender Telecaster thinline
2014 Fender Concert Pro (New Hartford) - red spruce, mahogany
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