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Old 04-09-2020, 08:58 AM
Rescon Rescon is offline
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Default 5E3 Circuit Amps - for beginners??

Hey All, hope everyone is building calluses and staying safe/sane. Here’s my situation: relatively new to electric guitar but have been playin acoustic for 30 yrs. I have a Fender Thinline modern player retrofit with Fahlin P90’s. My amp is a Mustang 3 but I see now that Fender is no longer supporting their Fuse software and honestly, this amp is too much for me. Too many options and I don’t know amps very well so all the choices and pedals are overwhelming. Got some good tones but have always felt overwhelmed.
My jamming buddy plays a Deluxe Reverb silverface and just plugs in and goes. Superior tone and simplicity. I want that in a smallish tubeamp of some kind.
Because I’ve haven’t played or heard too many amps, hard to say what I like but what I hear and love from the Net is deluxe type 5e3 circuit type amps. Having never played one, I’m concerned that many say that they’re very touch sensitive and responsive to a players touch. Yeah, I’m no player with any kind of touch on electric. Half the time I’m playing sharp cause I can’t seem to get that light tough needed to not bend the strings. Lol.
But the tone and simplicity is killer and I’ve watched a ton of videos and that’s what I keep gravitating to.
I understand they are pricey but I just want something for the house and small party’s/gigs that doesn’t get me frustrated every time I play.

Thanks everyone and stay safe!!

Nick
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Old 04-09-2020, 09:47 AM
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The 5E3 is a lovely amp but darned loud, as almost all tube amps are. Before you can get it up to the level where it compresses it will drive you out of the bedroom. However, they are darned cool amps. I commissioned one a while back and wrote up an article about it that you can find, HERE.

Is your question where to get a kit or whom to purchase from? If it is the former, look into Weber Amps. If it is the latter, consider Tweed Deluxe Speed Shop. They are highly reputed. After building one for me and four for Joe Walsh, my builder took down his site.

Bob
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Old 04-09-2020, 10:26 AM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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If you are used to wattage ratings on SS amp you will be shocked at how much louder tube amps generally are. 10-15 watts is pretty darn loud and will suffice for (indoor) crowds of 150-200 people depending on venue size.

Commissioned 5e3 builds aren't cheap, no small builder tube amp comes cheap, quite honestly. Believe it or not, a 5f1 champ would be enough for your application.

As Bob said, tube amps sound best when pushed a bit and they can get EXTREMELY loud at the levels that they sound best.

There are lots of great 1 and 2 channel amps out there in the 1-10 watt range that are simple, straight forward and have great tone. The option of a "dirty" channel is nice to have and takes away the need for and extra powered pedal.

Consider:

Supro
Blackstar
Bugera
Fender
Vht
Vox
Orange (hybrid)

Reverb and/or tremelo are very nice to have as well.

It sounds like a great clean tone is important to you.
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:30 AM
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Check out the smaller Tweed Champ (5F1) circuit. No where near in your face as the 5E3, but still plenty of volume. Talk about simple, there is only a volume control - all tone is controlled from your guitar.

Cleans up nicely at lower volumes (which is not a trait of the 5E3), but has plenty of crunch (distortion) when you crank it up.

Go to YouTube and listen to Julian Lage on his Tele clone in to a 5F1 to get some feel on what this amp can do.

I've got both (both home brews), and cannot use the 5E3 in the house without an attenuater - it goes from 0 to loud at about 3 on the dial. The 5F1 can still be too loud at times, but does sound great at lower volumes.

D
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:40 PM
RickRS RickRS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescon View Post
Having never played one, I’m concerned that many say that they’re very touch sensitive and responsive to a players touch. Yeah, I’m no player with any kind of touch on electric. Half the time I’m playing sharp cause I can’t seem to get that light tough needed to not bend the strings. Lol.
My two cents on this one item:
"Touch sensitive" on an amp is more the "attack" on the strings with your picking hand. What this is about is signal into the front end tubes being at a level right at the edge of distortion. So without touching a volume knob on either the guitar or amp, your sound when picking soft will be clean, or at least cleaner, and when you dig in the amp's front end compresses and starts to distort on the volume increase. I find it's not so much what you do, as what the amp and guitar combination can do with what you feed it.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:57 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescon View Post
...My amp is a Mustang 3 but I see now that Fender is no longer supporting their Fuse software and honestly, this amp is too much for me. Too many options and I don’t know amps very well so all the choices and pedals are overwhelming...

My jamming buddy plays a Deluxe Reverb silverface and just plugs in and goes. Superior tone and simplicity...I just want something for the house and small parties/gigs that doesn’t get me frustrated every time I play...

...I’m no player with any kind of touch on electric. Half the time I’m playing sharp cause I can’t seem to get that light tough needed to not bend the strings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roylor4 View Post
If you are used to wattage ratings on SS amps you will be shocked at how much louder tube amps generally are. 10-15 watts is pretty darn loud and will suffice for (indoor) crowds of 150-200 people depending on venue size...

Reverb and/or tremolo are very nice to have as well.

It sounds like a great clean tone is important to you.
Pretty much sums up why I always recommend a low-/mid-powered analog amp (tube or solid-state - I strongly prefer the former but use both regularly) for a relative novice: WYSIWYG controls, a minimum of bells and whistles, and enough power for just about any situation you're likely to encounter at this stage; that said, there are several major differences...

As Roy states, for a number of technical reasons I'm not going to get into here in the interest of brevity/simplicity tube amps are, as a rule, substantially louder than solid-state-amps of comparable rating. Back in the early-50's when tubes were the only game in town a 15-20 watt combo was considered a high-power rig, and if you're familiar with the new Fender Tonemaster version of the Deluxe Reverb it takes a 100W solid-state power amp to match the dynamic range/tonal response of its 22W all-tube cousin (and a whopping 200W in the case of the Tonemaster Twin Reverb ); while there are many good reasons for choosing a solid-state rig (power/weight ratio, price per watt, minimal maintenance, pristine clean tone) - I use a vintage Randall RB-120 1x15" combo for jazz comping and "old-school" bass, and a blackface Twin-clone Fender Frontman 212R for bigger halls/outdoor gigs (my '65 Super Reverb RI is a bear to handle at my age) - when that sweet, creamy, touch-sensitive tone in the order of the night I'll reach for a tube amp every time...

FYI my preferences also run to "big-clean" electric guitar tones - I cut my musical teeth at a time when blonde/blackface Fenders and blue-check Ampegs ruled the Saturday night legion-hall/school-gym/church-basement dances, and I'm still a plug-&-play/guitar-cable-amp guy - and the key word here is headroom, enough power reserve to cover the dynamic range you require without running out of gas (PSA: big power in a guitar amp doesn't necessarily need to translate to ear-spitting volume - the late Les Paul used a silverface Twin to play intimate club gigs). Speaking as a former NHRA bracket racer it's like two engines, one small-block/one big-block: you'll need to buzz the small motor to nine grand to get the same grunt you'll get from the big one at 6500 - and in the latter case there's still more in there; BTW both Leo Fender and Everett Hull (Ampeg) understood this - in its original configuration the Twin was intended as a high-headroom combo for bigger halls (where it still excels IME), and until the late-60's Ampeg didn't even offer a guitar amp rated over 60 watts. In that light, I'd sooner go with something with a little more power than I think I'm going to need - I can always dial it back at the guitar, use the low-gain input, or play with the channel gain/master volume (on a modern amp) to find what I'm looking for...

That said, if you're looking for something along the lines of your bud's Deluxe minus the four-figure pricetag of a vintage piece and with more user control, I've been using a Bugera V22 for the last ten years as my grab-&-go amp: two switchable channels, enough power to cover a 600-700 seat auditorium clean or dirty (what Roy said about tube amps being deceptively loud for their wattage rating), scales down to a bedroom-friendly 15W (which also opens up some nice pre-Top Boost Vox-type tones - think Cavern Club-era Beatles or early Stones), built like a tank (these guys use machine screws to secure everything - something you don't even find on some boutique amps at four or five times the price), and with the current (no pun intended) Infinium circuitry power tube replacement is a DIY proposition rather than a $100 tab at your local tech (FYI power tube biasing - simply speaking, optimizing/matching to your individual amp - is a $100 job in my area, and a required part of routine tube amp maintenance) - a lot going on for ~$400, and as many other satisfied users here will attest you're not going to find this much tone for anything near the price. Should your needs be more modest there's the V5, their version of the single-ended Class-A 1x8" combos that have become the darling of the recording/studio set (FWIW if you're serious about the electric thing you will need one of these sooner or later), and at ~$200 street you almost can't afford not to own one; this one's as simple as they come: gain/tone/master (highly interactive - there's some great tones in there if you sit down and twist the dials to your taste) and a built-in digi-verb that keeps it from sounding too boxy. The only caveat is that some players find the tone a little dark-sounding (as most amps of this type are), but having used mine with a P-90 LP you should have no trouble dialing in a sweet early-Tweed tone, with enough volume for cofffeehouse gigs or band rehearsal - which is where mine sees regular duty...

Finally, I don't know what type/gauge of strings you're using on your Tele but there's nothing in the U.S. Code that prevents you from moving up to a heavier gauge and/or a wound G - in fact, until you get your bearings on electric I'd recommend it (you'll need to adjust the intonation at the bridge - make sure your saddles will allow you to properly intonate a wound G - and most likely the action and truss rod as well). If you're primarily a clean-tone player, I'd also suggest giving a set of flatwounds a try - with improved technology/manufacturing methods they're no longer the dead-sounding thud machines of 50-60 years ago and, as all the '50s jazzers and rockabilly cats knew, they'll allow you to drop the action significantly lower than with roundwounds (which will also facilitate going up a gauge or two - until very recently I never used anything lighter than 12's on any of my electrics)..

Good luck...
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:40 PM
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Al Acuff Al Acuff is offline
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I love my 5E3 tweed Deluxe and my tweed Champ but if I could only keep one amp it would be my 65 Princeton Reverb. It covers a lot of musical sounds and styles. Sounds good at home or at a gig.

If you are going to build a kit and it's your first time then I'd recommend a tweed Champ. It's the easiest. A 5E3 is pretty simple too. The Princeton Reverb is more challenging.
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Old 04-09-2020, 01:54 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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I have a lot of low powered tube amps, and I can say without a doubt, that a well built 5E3 style has one of the most beautiful clean tones I've ever heard. There is just something wonderful about the way the single notes sound, and it doesn't take a lot of volume to get the great clean tone. To get them to distort, which they do gloriously, does take a bit more volume, but what a payoff. I would say if you do get a 5E3, get a good reverb pedal to go with it, because that's usually a nice combination. And speaking of pedals, they usually take pedals well!

Here's a great video demoing some tricks on how to drive a 5E3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2vqCxaeC0

Here's mine, a Clark Beaufort...

http://www.clarkamplification.com/beaufort.html

Here's a demo I did with mine which I think demonstrates the tweed slight breakup...

https://soundcloud.com/daniel-weldon-1/tweed-love

Here's a short demo showing how Larry Carlton sets his 5E3 to the fine line between clean and breakup..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRShwn9bHhM

Last edited by rockabilly69; 04-09-2020 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 04-09-2020, 03:06 PM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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As usual, Steve is a fountain of information on this subject.

The Bugera V5 he mentions is a excellent little amp, but I agree that it matches best with single coils or P90's. A little dark with HB's for my taste.

The V5 has an attenuator 5w/1w/.1 watt - but it really doesn't sound good in the lower modes to me. The V22 is very heavy (42 lbs) to me for gigging, and I'm a former powerlifter.

I just saw this amp this morning: Koch Jupiter Junior - it is tube hybrid and loaded with features.

Reverb
Attenuation from 1-20 watts (this is super important if you want to play out and at home)
3 channels
DI
10" Jensen speaker

Only weighs in at 26 lbs.

Good luck in your search. I honestly think that there has never been a time so rich with viable amp choices than there are right now.
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Old 04-09-2020, 05:43 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
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I join in the suggestion above you at least check out the Princeton Reverb Reissue. It is (along with its clones), to my ears, the practice/play at home amp with the Fender sound.
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Old 04-09-2020, 06:37 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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I join in the suggestion above you at least check out the Princeton Reverb Reissue. It is (along with its clones), to my ears, the practice/play at home amp with the Fender sound.
If he buys a B-Stock piece in order to save some money, would it be correct to call it a Princeton Refurb...?
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Old 04-09-2020, 07:48 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
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If he buys a B-Stock piece in order to save some money, would it be correct to call it a Princeton Refurb...?
So PRRF?

As long as it still works.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:34 PM
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The 5e3 is a great home amp for me. I also have a nice Vintage 15 ('64 PR built by VSA amps) and a Vox AC4HW1. I love them all, but if I could keep only one it would be the 5e3 Deluxe.

As I said over at TDPRI:

Jim at Lil Dawg amps has chassis builds for $600. I built my own 10" speaker cab ($25) and put a Weber 10A100 speaker ($100) in it.

If cost is an issue, that deal is pretty hard to beat IMO.

Jim is a terrific builder with a stellar reputation.
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Old 04-11-2020, 10:26 AM
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You've got what you need, IMO - the Mustang III. One of the available amp models is the Tweed Deluxe - https://fender-mustang-amps-and-fuse...iki/Amp_Models

According to olefudd, it's pretty close to the real deal, plus you have a master volume, can use headphones, no tubes to replace/bias, have an input jack, have an effects loop, built-in reverb, the opportunity to add other effects in the chain.

I have a Mustang III, and I love it. I have mine default to a cleanish Deluxe Reverb. While FUSE makes it easier, you don't need FUSE to work the III because of its LC display and excellent knobage. Just take any of the 100 presets - even the default one that comes up when you power on, change the amp to the Tweed Deluxe, remove the effects from the preset, and save it back with a new name - Tweed Deluxe - and you're done. Your Mustang III will thereafter power up to Tweed Deluxe, just like you owned the real deal, and we know olefudd says it's close to the real deal. I'd try that before the tube amp scene.

But, if you do go tube, consider that you're playing a single coil pickup, consider that you already like the Tweed Deluxe sound, consider that that sound is a function of 2 6v6 power tubes (not EL84s), and then don't get an EL84 amp.

What to get if you must descend into the rabbit hole for your Deluxe tone? Hmmm, simple controls, cheap, master volume, 2 6v6s making at least 10 watts ( a "must have" for that deep deluxe tone), decent 10" speaker, Hi/Lo inputs, sounds great . . . how about the Laney Cub 10? I love mine. They're a little pricier now at $350 than the $300 I paid a few months ago on sale, but worth a listen (YT below).

I wife-tested my Mustang III (on Deluxe Reverb) vs the Laney Cub 10 (just clean playing) - she couldn't tell them apart, AND preferred the Mustang III a smidge more. Even if you try a tube amp, I'd sure keep that Mustang III, in your place.

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Old 04-11-2020, 05:23 PM
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Not really sure there is a lot of similarity between the 5R3 and the Club 10, not to say it is not a fine amp. But other than the tube complement they have different circuits, the Club more akin to a Bassman but with a Blackface tonestack.
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