Why hasn't CF Broken into the mainstream?

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

That said, I would have to sound better to me that a traditional Gibson/Martin/Taylor for me to consider buying one.

Okay, this surprises me. I totally understand that you prefer the look of wood. However, if a CF guitar sounded as good as a traditional Gibson/Martin/Taylor, that wouldn't be good enough? It actually has to sound better? I find that stunning, given all the problems that wood guitars have with humidity, needing neck resets, etc. So, the advantages that CF has to offer mean nothing to you?

The advantages of CF are plentiful. The biggest disadvantage for most guitarists is that they don't sound like traditional wood guitars. It's very doubtful you'll find one that sounds better than traditional wood guitars (especially when you're fighting the all to common bias against non-wood guitars), but you can certainly find ones that sound as good. For instance, my CA Vintage Performer sounds very much like a quality wood guitar. It could easily convince some wood lovers to consider CF. But it doesn't sound better.

[skeeterbuck]

I don't understand why you're really surprised. Think of it like this and keep in mind I have never tried or seen a CF guitar in person.

I like the look, feel & tone of wooden guitars.
All the acoustic music that I like was made with wooden guitars.
I'm not crazy about the look of a CF guitar, Their OK.
Where I live I don't have a great problems with maintaining my wooden guitars. (in case humidifiers)
I never had a wood guitar that needed a neck reset.

So what is left to win me over with CF guitars?, the tone & price. We've already established that the prices for CF guitars are up there with nice wooden guitars (Martin D-18 was the example given).

So... to my way of thinking, the tone has to be the factor that sways me over to the CF guitars. If the tone is only as good, I'm sticking with wood.

This discussion reminds me of the electric guys that go back & forth over the idea of "reliced" guitars vs. new looking guitars. It's just "different strokes for different folks"

It's all good!

[blacknblues]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

As far as appearance goes, I doubt that is stopping anyone from purchasing a CF guitar. I purchased my first one almost 14-yars ago out of necessity, a Rainsong OM1000 at my local GC. We had just bought our vacation home in the local mountains and I found that wood guitars didn't do well with the 12% humidity up there, so I decided to buy something I wouldn't have to worry about. Other than the color, the Rainsong had a nice traditional look and feel, as well as great tone and playability so I was sold. The kid who wrote me up was kind enough to reminded me that I could buy a really nice wood guitar for the same $2000 plus price but I told him I have plenty of wood guitars and handed him my Amex. Once I had the OM1000 for a while I began to appreciate the qualities of CF more and more and some time later I added a Blackbird Rider to my stable.

Although I haven't lost my passion for the look and tonal qualities of wood guitars, I really appreciate what CF has to offer and I'm almost at a point where if forced to chose just one guitar, it might have to be a CF acoustic.

I live in New England and just laid my wooden guitars down to sleep tucked away in their cases within my humidified closet... meanwhile my CFs are staying out and within arms reach next to the TV. Oh.. and did I mention they sound terrific?

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

I don't understand why you're really surprised. Think of it like this and keep in mind I have never tried or seen a CF guitar in person.

I like the look, feel & tone of wooden guitars.
All the acoustic music that I like was made with wooden guitars.
I'm not crazy about the look of a CF guitar, Their OK.
Where I live I don't have a great problems with maintaining my wooden guitars. (in case humidifiers)
I never had a wood guitar that needed a neck reset.

So what is left to win me over with CF guitars?, the tone & price. We've already established that the prices for CF guitars are up there with nice wooden guitars (Martin D-18 was the example given).

So... to my way of thinking, the tone has to be the factor that sways me over to the CF guitars. If the tone is only as good, I'm sticking with wood.

This discussion reminds me of the electric guys that go back & forth over the idea of "reliced" guitars vs. new looking guitars. It's just "different strokes for different folks"

It's all good!

So, you're using in case humidifiers? You don't see any advantage to being able to keep your guitars out on stands and not worry about humidification? I can see that you've gotten used to dealing with this, but CF would make it unnecessary.

I'm not trying to convince you, by the way, but I believe that most guitarists would prefer not to have to worry about maintaining proper humidity levels. It's a hassle they've gotten used to dealing with, but would prefer not to. For them, I suspect most would consider CF guitars if they felt they sounded as good as wood.

[Captain Jim]

I don't sell guitars, so it isn't my place to try to convince anyone of anything. If someone is a "wood guy" and they can't see any potential advantage, their mind is closed. I'm not saying that is bad, just not open.

Some like a mahogany top better than a spruce top. If that's all they know, they will never try a maple.

I've been playing for almost 50 years. Only the last few have I spent time to learn more about tonewoods. Options. Carbon fiber is another option. Some will like it, some won't. Some like Taylor, some like Martin. None of that changes my taste or choices. I haven't tried every brand of carbon fiber, so I can't say all CF compares with all wood... but, I do have a Rainsong Shorty that I am mighty fond of.

I like options.

[Malty]

Isn't the tone we seek related to music we come to like and revere over a period of years? And isn't that usually music from our own lifetimes?

When the Elvis or Clapton or Segovia of the future uses a CF guitar, sales will increase, competition will breed development and breakthroughs. The wood guitar may join film, sliderules, and telegraph instruments as once superior technologies that still have a tiny cult-like following but is well outside the mainstream.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

Okay, this surprises me. I totally understand that you prefer the look of wood. However, if a CF guitar sounded as good as a traditional Gibson/Martin/Taylor, that wouldn't be good enough? It actually has to sound better?.

No lets face it, finding a carbon fiber guitar that sound better than a Taylor isn't exactly challenging now is it?

*ducks*

Ok, in all seriousness: Carbon fiber is expensive. My Rainsong is the most expensive guitar I own, and it was a fairly good stretch to be able to afford it.

I know some guys with Carbon Fiber mountain bikes. There are a lot of advantages, but 99.9%+ are still made from either aluminum or steel.

You can buy carbon fiber auto parts, but 99.9999% are still made of steel.

You can buy carbon fiber gunstocks, but most are wood or injection molded.


Etc.

In each case, while CF construction has some measurable benefit (stiffness, weight savings) the price/cost limits the application to a small segment of the marketplace.

[skeeterbuck]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

So, you're using in case humidifiers? You don't see any advantage to being able to keep your guitars out on stands and not worry about humidification? I can see that you've gotten used to dealing with this, but CF would make it unnecessary.

I don't keep my guitars out on stands. I always keep them in their cases when I'm not playing them.

Originally Posted by mchalebk

I'm not trying to convince you, by the way, but I believe that most guitarists would prefer not to have to worry about maintaining proper humidity levels. It's a hassle they've gotten used to dealing with, but would prefer not to. For them, I suspect most would consider CF guitars if they felt they sounded as good as wood.

You sure sound like you trying to convince me. What you refer to as a hassle is really no big deal to me. I keep a gallon jug of distilled water handy and fill the humidifier up when it needs it. I use an Oasis humidifier and it's very easy to check.

Now… talk about hassle that's my commute back and forth to work, but that getting off of the topic.

I think that it would be better for the CF manufactures to try and get more music stores to carry their line. Like I've stated in my previous post, I never had the chance to play one because none of my local stores carry them.

[skeeterbuck]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

I don't sell guitars, so it isn't my place to try to convince anyone of anything. If someone is a "wood guy" and they can't see any potential advantage, their mind is closed. I'm not saying that is bad, just not open.

This sounds rather condescending to me Capt. Jim. Heaven forbid that I don't blindly bow down at the altar of CF and "open" my mind to all the CF has to offer.

If you would like to buy me a CF guitar, I would gladly play it, but until then I'll choose what make of guitar that I spend my money on.

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Some like a mahogany top better than a spruce top. If that's all they know, they will never try a maple.

I've been playing for almost 50 years. Only the last few have I spent time to learn more about tonewoods. Options. Carbon fiber is another option. Some will like it, some won't. Some like Taylor, some like Martin. None of that changes my taste or choices. I haven't tried every brand of carbon fiber, so I can't say all CF compares with all wood... but, I do have a Rainsong Shorty that I am mighty fond of.

I like options.

I've been playing almost 50 years too and I currently choose to play a Gibson J-60 spruce /walnut. Yum yum!

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

I don't keep my guitars out on stands. I always keep them in their cases when I'm not playing them.

The question I would ask is: why? For most guitarists, it’s because the cases afford protection (from pets, kids, environment, whatever…). However, an awful lot of guitarists (certainly myself) find that guitars are more likely to get played if they are kept out where they can be easily accessed (I realize it's not that hard to grab a case, open it and start playing; however, it's definitely easier to simply pull a guitar off a stand and have at it). The answer for you may be as simple as: it gets them out of the way. However, there’s a pretty good chance that, somewhere along the line, you realized it was better for the guitars if you stored them in their cases. This is one of the things that a lot of us find appealing about CF: we don’t have to worry about our guitars getting damaged if we don’t store them in their cases.

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

I think that it would be better for the CF manufactures to try and get more music stores to carry their line. Like I've stated in my previous post, I never had the chance to play one because none of my local stores carry them.

This would definitely help. However, I think it will be some time before this happens. In some cases, because of limited production. In other cases, because the guitars are fairly pricey and stores like Guitar Center can’t sell very many of them, so won’t carry very many of them. Rainsong is probably the only CF manufacturer who stands a chance at getting decent numbers out into shops around the country.

I hope you do get the chance to play some CF guitars. However, they won’t blow you away when compared to wood guitars. If the durability aspect doesn’t add any value for you, it is very unlikely that CF makes any sense… for you.

[martind42]

For myself, I'd own a CF guitar as a beater, probably never for the sound it produces, but for something that can withstand abuse. I'm sure there will be improvements along the way, but it will never replace the beauty and sound of a wooden instrument. And why is it important to replace wood? By the way, my Petros T13 guitar does have CF rods in the neck, so I think there are always going to be new ways to improve things.

CF could be just as easily an aluminum, plexiglass, pvc, or even stained glass. Each would be cool to see and hear, especially a stained glass guitar lit from inside. That I'd like to see and hear. Could be a crazy instrument like the glass armonica.

Guess I should have simply googled it to see an electric version has already been created for Jimmy Fallon: http://www.deanguitars.com/news/content.php?id=53

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by martind42

I'm sure there will be improvements along the way, but it will never replace the beauty and sound of a wooden instrument.

Beauty is certainly subjective (plus I love the look of wood guitars, too; my prize electric is a Rosewood Telecaster, which looks incredible), so I won't debate that point. However, how can you be so sure that CF can't sound as good as (or better than) wood? I have at least one CF guitar that very few people (if any) would be able to tell wasn't wood in a blind listening test. And CF will only get better and better as the builders refine their skills.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

Beauty is certainly subjective (plus I love the look of wood guitars, too; my prize electric is a Rosewood Telecaster, which looks incredible), so I won't debate that point. However, how can you be so sure that CF can't sound as good as (or better than) wood? I have at least one CF guitar that very few people (if any) would be able to tell wasn't wood in a blind listening test. And CF will only get better and better as the builders refine their skills.

Plus one Brian, CF can, and does sound as good, and even better than at least a dozen wood guitar brands I can think of. As for esthetics, that's up to the individual of course but I think my Rainsong Black Ice dreadnought looks rather good.

[Doubleneck]

I have no issue with wood guitars, but CF can do things wood just can't just because of its superior strength, light weight and mold ability. I know it was shown earlier, but this guitar is just not possible in wood and its a hoot, and my guitar love.


Glad someone is pushing the envelope, or this wouldn't exist. Martin and Taylor make a Doubleneck and they make two of them and stick them in a museum.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by blacknblues

I live in New England and just laid my wooden guitars down to sleep tucked away in their cases within my humidified closet... meanwhile my CFs are staying out and within arms reach next to the TV. Oh.. and did I mention they sound terrific?

Love it!