Wind farms-need some science help.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by AndreF

Oh yes, they sure can be. And they can often knock the power out. But those are all "Acts of ***" events. Not much you can do about that, especially with so many trees in our parts. Utilities around here are always quick to restore power in my experience.

You would think that they would have figured out by now that there are better ways of supplying utilities other that wires and such above ground.

Most (all?) new housing developments are done that way, IIRC.

Originally Posted by AndreF

It's the intentional and mismanaged power shutoffs for large swaths of the population in other parts of the country, at the worst possible times, that really gets me upset.
But I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, I get exactly what you're saying, so we'll leave it at that.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48936941

This made me LOL. Putin is worried about bird strikes. Comedy gold.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

You would think that they would have figured out by now that there are better ways of supplying utilities other that wires and such above ground.

My wife has worked as an engineer in the power industry all of her working career. It costs more than $1M per mile to build an underground power transmission line, and roughly $100K to put that same line above ground on towers. In seismically active areas, it is also much harder to repair that underground line if any damage occurs. It all comes down to economics. You can have all of the solar and wind power that you want at 40-80 cents per kWh, but most US residents pay ~ 13 cents per kilowatt-hour - and complain about that. Distribution lines in residential area are a whole 'nother discussion.

As for birds, most species are not programmed to look for threats coming from above in the Z-axis. The really fast moving vertical tips (they only look like they are moving slowly to us from a distance) will take out a bunch of them - and many are endangered or threatened species like raptors. Having been around the power industry for 35+ years, it is noteworthy that we have never been invited to tour a wind farm. We have toured substations and many power plants (coal, nuclear, hydrothermal, solar, etc) but never a wind farm.

[k_russell]

Originally Posted by H165

Windmill bird strikes have been studied for decades. There is TONS of data.

In light of this forum, it's interesting that Ross Landry (picture), one of the world's best bluegrass mandolin players, was working on these studies with the Museum of Natural History. We shared an office for a while back in the late 1980s.

A related website:

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthu...d-turbines.php

With estimates between 140,000 and 500,000, we need a lot more studying.

[Dirk Hofman]

As an aside, outdoor cats kill 2.4 BILLION birds a year in the US alone.

https://abcbirds.org/article/outdoor...ays-new-study/

Even though windmill strikes are a rounding error on that number, my feeling is that it isn't to be ignored. We're talking about different and potentially endangered bird types in some cases, and the damage can be mitigated with placement of the windmills. But let's do keep it in perspective. I presume no one thinks we should abandon cat ownership because of the above.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

As an aside, outdoor cats kill 2.4 BILLION birds a year in the US alone.

https://abcbirds.org/article/outdoor...ays-new-study/

Even though windmill strikes are a rounding error on that number, my feeling is that it isn't to be ignored. We're talking about different and potentially endangered bird types in some cases, and the damage can be mitigated with placement of the windmills. But let's do keep it in perspective. I presume no one thinks we should abandon cat ownership because of the above.

Just one point to add; cats wantonly killing birds differs a bit from people doing the same. We're not cats.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Just one point to add; cats wantonly killing birds differs a bit from people doing the same. We're not cats.

But wait...I repeat, I’m always being told “animals are just like people”.

Sorry...had to go there. I find that statement absurd.
That’s certainly because I’m old, unenlightened and out of it.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Just one point to add; cats wantonly killing birds differs a bit from people doing the same. We're not cats.

This is true, and when making a comparison I don't seek to make an equivalency. We need energy, all energy has a cost/benefit ratio. I think we need to understand numbers in context to appropriately weigh that ratio. The comparison sought to do that.

The "manufacturing windmills pollutes" argument is similar to the "windmills kill birds" argument. In seeking to illuminate the downsides of clean(er) energy, they both intentionally obfuscate the far greater harm other forms of energy generation create. They become false equivalencies and strawmen. We all know manufacturing has an environmental cost, no one is arguing that it's free of cost. And like our buddy Putin in the link above, these arguments are generally made out a concern for personal advantage, ideology, or defense of the status quo rather than an abiding concern for our avian friends or the aesthetics of energy generation.

[Kerbie]

I think this thread has run its course. Closed.