Silk and Steel Strings On Nylon Braced Guitar

printer2 · #1 05-31-2018, 02:22 PM

I built a guitar for nylon but have not attached the bridge to it yet and had the thought of using silk and steel on it using a pin-less bridge. Is there any difference in intonation on the silk and steel as compared to regular steel strings?

LeightonBankes · #2 05-31-2018, 02:26 PM

not compared to regular steel strings, but they are way different than nylon. If you braced it for nylon strings, it won't handle the load of steel strings very well

printer2 · #3 05-31-2018, 04:18 PM

I just looked up some hard tension classical strings and tension of 106 lbs while EXP10's are 126 lbs. The guitar is a 22" scale which does reduce the tension already. I think it might be ok. Anybody know if the compensation changes any with the lower tension strings?

charles Tauber · #4 05-31-2018, 06:10 PM

Yes, more compensation for lower tension strings.

Rodger Knox · #5 05-31-2018, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Yes, more compensation for lower tension strings.

To the OP question, yes, there is a difference in the intonation between silk and steel (at least the wound strings) and regular steel strings. More flexible strings, less compensation. Charles is referring to lower tension steel strings, not silk and steel. He'll correct me if I'm wrong. The tension of silk and steel is a little less than 120 lbs, that's a little more than nylon if you're concerned about structural integrity.

Quickstep192 · #6 06-01-2018, 04:13 AM

Here are some strings that give a silk and steel sound at nylon string tension.

I think they sound really cool.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLDk-NncMOQ

printer2 · #7 06-01-2018, 07:59 AM

That does sound nice.

What I am trying to do is put together a guitar that is more steel string sounding but plays as easy as a nylon. I know a guy who gave up on learning to play because he has big mits and he was frustrated with a Fender electric sized neck. I brought my fence board nylon to work and put it in his hands and it raised his eyebrows because of the wider neck and the strings. I am pretty sure he will take another stab at learning if I make him a guitar but I think he would be more partial to a steel string sound.

When I build his I could beef up the bracing a little, for now I have three Martin size five guitars in different stages of completion and I planned on making them all nylon but thinking about him I thought of the silk and steels. I don't think the top will have a problem with the tension, I could try it as see how much the bridge rotates under load and cut the saddle after the bridge is mounted (oh no another jig). The compensation was something that I was not sure of. I have seen people put S&S on guitars built for gut and was wondering how off they would be.

Quickstep192 · #8 06-01-2018, 08:23 AM

Could you just build him a steel string guitar with a nice wide neck?

printer2 · #9 06-01-2018, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

Could you just build him a steel string guitar with a nice wide neck?

Yes but he also seemed to like the easy playing of the nylon strings. Since I have the similar guitars I was thinking of setting one up in nylon, one steel string, if I made another a steel string. That way he could try them and say what he would like. But before I put the nylon sting in his hands he never knew they existed. I want to remove as much frustration as I can to his learning. Once it sticks I expect him to get another guitar if he wants. Eventually I can see him having an electric with a wider neck as that is where his musical interests lie.

arie · #10 06-01-2018, 12:06 PM

keeping aware that the G on a nylon string is comp'd rather than the B as on a steel or silk and steel instrument? if the bracing differences are accounted for then it should just amount to a saddle swap if planned correctly. what can help here is a thicker saddle to give you more room for ramping.

printer2 · #11 06-01-2018, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arie

keeping aware that the G on a nylon string is comp'd rather than the B as on a steel or silk and steel instrument? if the bracing differences are accounted for then it should just amount to a saddle swap if planned correctly. what can help here is a thicker saddle to give you more room for ramping.

I wasn't planning on having it convertible from S&S to nylon but now that you mention it I'll have to look at this more closely. Swap out the saddle and nut.

Frank Ford · #12 06-01-2018, 05:15 PM

There is such a thing as a metal-wound nylon third string for classical guitar. Switch out the plain third in a high tension set, replace the first and second with .010 and .013 steel strings.

That will give you approximately the same tension, nowhere near the price of Thomastic Pearse.

You'll need extra third strings - they're really fragile. . .

printer2 · #13 06-01-2018, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

There is such a thing as a metal-wound nylon third string for classical guitar. Switch out the plain third in a high tension set, replace the first and second with .010 and .013 steel strings.

That will give you approximately the same tension, nowhere near the price of Thomastic Pearse.

You'll need extra third strings - they're really fragile. . .

I once wondered about using the bass strings from a classical set and the trebles from a steel. I just looked up metal wound nylon thirds and the second post was 'loved the sound but they broke very quickly'. I smiled thinking, 'I heard that somewhere.'