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#31
06-14-2013, 02:27 AM
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I'm trying to learn how to build a guitar, right? Well, one basic skill that someone who wants to build a guitar needs to learn is how to maintain a plane. Specifically, I wanted to know how to sharpen the iron. I had a basic understanding of how such a thing could be accomplished, but did not understand enough about the particulars to actually do it. So where do I go? I googled "sharpen plane blade" or something like that. Scrolling down through the results, I find a thread on a boat building forum of all places titled "sharpening plane blade on granite block". I click on the link and I'm reading down through the thread. I come across a post by a guy named Nicolas Carey. He is a senior member of this particular boat building forum, having over 8 thousand posts! I read his response to the thread and several things occur to me (remember, critical thinking). First. He presents himself as being knowledgeable on the subject. He communicates intelligently. This tells me that he either knows what he's talking about, or he's an idiot who knows how to communicate. Next, the content that he posts seems to make sense to me logically (more critical thinking). And lastly, I understand something fundamental about human nature. We love to talk, especially when the subject is something about which we are knowledgeable. And even more than that, we love to debate things, especially when we feel someone else is wrong about something(hence the conversation you and I are having). So if Mr. Carey had been blowing smoke in his post about how one sharpens a plane iron on a granite block, there would have been significant blow back to his post. People calling him out and setting the record straight. Do I see any of that? Nope. Instead I see people confirming to the original poster that his advice is sound. Community intelligence. Given a large enough, diverse enough group of people who know something about a given topic, the general consensus on the subject will usually be right. So. I have what I feel like is a pretty good primer for how to go about doing what I must do. So what comes next? Diving in! Trial and error. I buy a 5 dollar granite tile from the local hard ware store, some sand paper of various grits, put on a movie and get to business. The result? Well, I can shave with the dang thing, it nearly has a mirror like shine after I lapped it, and I can get really, really fine shavings of wood with the plane. Like, less than paper thin. Translucent. Whispey little shavings that blow away in the wind. It's so sharp, I accidentally cut my finger on it and almost didn't feel the cut. So Mr. Carey does indeed know what he's talking about. Now, what did I risk in all of that? Next to nothing. I needed the sand paper and the granite tile for a couple other tasks anyway. If you know what you are looking for and you know how to think for yourself, the internet can be an endless source of education on almost anything. All it takes is a little self confidence, some critical thinking skills, and a willingness to fail, from which you will learn something anyway. EDIT: If you are curious... here's the thread I mentioned. Mr. Carey's post is number 11 on that page. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-Granite-Block Last edited by Viking; 06-14-2013 at 02:33 AM. 
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#32
06-14-2013, 05:33 AM
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I think there are many processes of guitar making that are not analogous to plane tuing or blade sharpening. You can take any plane blade and sharpen it per whatever instructions you prefer, and have consistent results. But you cannot take any plane, and use it in the same direction, or blade or bevel angle, or mouth opening, and expect to get consistent results on any random piece of wood.
I feel there is also a flaw in the thinking of using "lesser quality" woods. THe builders of these guitars using such woods have the benefit of experience of building many guitars past, and it is that experience that allows them to make said guitars sound and play excellently despite the materials. If you don't even have one build done with more "common" guitar woods, then how can you judge the wuality of a "pallet" guitar? I think a better way to get "cheaper" wood would be to learn how to select lumber at the nearest lumber yard, and learn to (or have someone) resaw the board to back and side sets, even tops. There is also a contradiction on your argment of of using "consensus" information. You have the words of four luthiers (though the books you own) as well as a majority here in this thread suggesting to "go by the book," at least for a first build. This to me is a consensus... I understand that not everyone can follow every instruction "by the book" but at least a blueprint and direction are laid out to follow. I feel it's akin to finding driving directions online to a place you've never been before. You can follow the directions precisely and get to your destination, every time, repeatably. You can also, after familiarizing yourself with the area, take a shortcut or detour here or there, to either make the trip faster or avoid traffic. You also can take random turns, though you may not know where you'll end up. Again, the authors of these books have the cumulative experience of all those before them; so in a way their book IS a consensus of that cumulative experience. As far as using failure as a learning mechanism, I feel that's fine as long as you're comfortable with the implications. Anyone can learn to fail, not everyone can learn to succeed. The problem with using failure as a learning tool is that it only works if you know what success is. It's great for learning what NOT to do maybe, but then how fo you go about learning what TO do? By learning what NOT to do, again? Doesn't make sense to me, either... It's also unfair to disparage those who have a college education, just because you "figured it out" without one. Regardless of schooling, everyone learns from someone before them. And even if you didn't go to school to learn something, chances are you learned what you know from someone who DID. All the great builders, many who are on this forum, don't go around waving their credentials at everyone's faces. They let their workmanship and quality of sound do the talking. Most of them just post pictures and brief descriptions. Really, though isn't it pointless for you to argue this if you're going to do wat you want anyway? I will disclose that personally, I don't like to follow "directions" either. I own both Somogyi's and Benedetto's books, though I've never followed every instruction in them, I admire their work greatly and it's the closest I'll ever get to owning one of their instruments. I've done work in computer programming an building, accounting, woodworking, home building, engraving, sign making, car repair and restoration, all with no prior experience or formal training. I even made a living "shooting pool" for a year an a half; I learned to win because failure meant no food, rent, or gas money. Having a woodworking and cabinetmaking background I feel gave me a little of an advavntage (as well as having most all the tools I needed) though I had to reevaluate and refine my techniques for the tighter tolerances needed. I also believe as you probably do that colleges today may bot be the best for some folks in preparation for the "real world." However I don't think it's fair to look negatively on those who hae taken this path; if finances allowed I would have also stayed in college. I admire your confidence in your pursuit but remind you that guitar building can be one of the most humbling things to do. Earlier this month I han an opportunity to visit Paul Heumiller of Dream Guitars in Weaverville, NC, right in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I couldn't believe the wuality of guitar that can be had even at the $3500 range, and I wondered if anyone who had the experience I had and the means would still purchase a mass-produced guitar. As I tried different guitars it became apparant that there really is a correlation to price and sound quality and level of detail, and of course materials used. Paul was even gracious enough to let me play his personal McConnell, and I've never been the same since; I don't have a first born to sell, unfortunately! But coming back home, playing my guitars, had reaffirmed that I still have so much to learn...
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#33
06-14-2013, 10:08 AM
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I am using sub-standard wood to build my first guitars. It allows me to learn what tools I can use and need to get the job done with little concern that I will be 'wasting' a good piece of wood rather than my time. In the process of working with sub-standard wood I have built the equipment needed and learned some of the finer points of bending wood sides. I have joined a number of pieces of wood together, surfaced them, and found out that a wood that has a tighter grain, grain more vertical and looks to be more desirable as a top or back is not necessarily so (kind of disappointing there). Wood from the same lot but one piece has an acceptable tap tone, the other little more than a thud. How will my budget builds sound? Not sure yet. But I am learning the method of building a fine guitar even if I am not using fine woods. I have learned how fragile cedar top can be, good thing it was just a piece of fence board that I resawed and thicknessed rather than one of the actual cedar guitar tops I bought. One set of pieces that came from a lowly $2.50 fence board (mind you I weeded through hundreds of boards to find this one) has a tap tone close to my luthier quality wood and it will be going on a better set of back and sides than my practice builds. By the time I get to using it I will probably have wasted hundreds of hours learning the methods of making a guitar. Probably better served by buying a kit guitar where most of the work is done for me. Or buy one ready made, after all life is too short to waste.
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#34
06-14-2013, 11:55 AM
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One of the best guidelines one could start out with in building guitars is to play as many great guitars as you can and develop the acuity to recognize a great guitar. It can give you an idea of a goal in terms of sound and workmanship, sort of an idea of what you would consider as goals as your skills develop.
While the internet can indeed be a great resource, it cannot replace having a great instrument in your hands, which can be an education in itself even before you play it. If you haven't done so already, go to guitar shops and play great guitars. Guitar Center and the like probably wouldn't be a great place for this. It's one of the things a school can't always teach, so the student ends up with some good information on building technique and can build a great looking guitar that lacks substance,. They can address shortcomings of their guitars only to the extent that they can perceive those shortcomings. I would use decent wood for your first guitar. Considering the small difference in cost, vs. the tool costs and time involved, it would be worthwhile to have a presentable first guitar. Decent wood could provide motivation to do a great job on details and finish. There are a lot of poorly built guitars out there that ended up that way because the builders didn't value the materials that went into them, with the idea that the foibles would be fixed on the next one and the next one and the next one. Also, if you ruin some decent wood, think of the extra pain you would inflict on yourself to help you remember the lesson learned! 8=) Mistakes are the best lessons. The masters have made them all. Be prepared for some disappointments in your first few instruments. They will be exercises in basic woodworking and in learning to use the tools. And be sure to keep the early ones. In the future, they will teach you a lot as to how far you've come. No matter how good you think they are now, ten guitars down the road, you'll see how wrong you were. Pat
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#35
06-14-2013, 01:39 PM
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bravo! -well put. in addition on listening to and playing great guitars i might add: -one needs to learn how to listen and to recognize good sound. now 1 million people will disagree on exactly what that is, but there will be a general consensus. imo one needs to sort this out or you will be forever lost. my wife and i go to guitar stores and check out instruments. we play everything from the cheap to the guitars locked up behind glass. as she plays i'll walk around the guitar listening -i'll crouch down, stand up, etc... to get the measure of the guitar. then we'll trade off and she'll do the same. learn to recognize quality and learn to articulate what you are hearing.
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#36
06-14-2013, 08:04 PM
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My first guitar (misspoke earlier as I did do a previous build) has flaws and at some point I will go back and try to fix them. But the flaws were not due to lack of care or desire to make a presentable guitar. Using a better grade of wood would not have changed the fit and finish one bit. I was basically winging it and learning as I built. I made two mistakes on the neck due to lack of knowledge. Using $50 or $100 more in materials would still have resulted in the same flaws. So I have a piece of cedar that I bought from a seller of fine woods and one that I cut from a fence board that cost me under $3 with tax from HD. They both ring nicely when I tap on them, which one should I use first? 
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#37
06-14-2013, 08:24 PM
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Also, good materials is good materials, no matter where they came from or how much they cost. If it came from an old barn and it's good, then call it good. Pat
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#38
06-14-2013, 08:30 PM
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The nicet western red cedar I have ever seen for the purpose of guitar tops is from a 2x8 decking board that I selected from A guy who sells fencing and decking materials. Each top cost me about $5. Wood appropriate to the purpose is wherever you can find it, not necessarily limited to specific types of suppliers.
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#39
06-15-2013, 07:33 AM
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 Originally I just wanted a six string neck with a cigar box on the end of it in order to practice fingering acoustically without a big bulky box. I was not expecting to make a true instrument but it turned out much better than originally envisioned but falls short in tone as you move up the neck. But now I actually know more of acoustic guitar construction and hopefully will be able to get the next one more right. I think the big sticking point here is what is good materials. My original guitar was built with flat sawn wood for the top, I used it because it was the right thickness, didn't know anything of acoustical properties of different cuts of wood or the different woods then. While it would be nice to use wood specifically intended for guitar, a person with a limited budget can still learn the craft in their first couple of builds with alternative woods. If mistakes are made no tears will be shed, just grab another piece of wood and go at it again. When you are learning the methods and how to use the tools I do not think it is important that a first guitar sounds stellar, it would be nice though. If you have the skills to do a fine instrument from the start it would be silly not to use as good a quality as you can. If you have two left thumbs and there is a good chance that your good wood will end up as kindling for the fire you might want to practice some woodcraft first. Actually thinking about it, building a uke would be a good place to start. Which just got me thinking, for such a large acoustic guitar community there really is not that much learning and self building going on here. More of a showplace for custom builders doing beautiful guitars and therefor the emphasis on premium wood. And when the time is factored in a couple hundred in materials is not significant. Probably because the whole process of building a guitar seems so daunting when you start with no foundation. I probably would not have thought to do it either if it were not for my seeing a cigar box guitar and thinking that I could build that. Taking it one step further with my hollow solid body the jump to a normal acoustic did not seem so far. Once I successfully build my practice guitar I'll have the confidence to shoot a little higher.
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#40
06-15-2013, 06:28 PM
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I built my first 8 or so acoustics (including two archtops) from leftover 2 x 12 clear cedar from a deck I built. I had about 5 boards which were used as the outer part of the rim joists, and they were all perfectly quarted with very tight grain. Bought at the local builders' supply...
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#41
06-15-2013, 09:08 PM
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Here's my original post again, as it's good information regardless of weather you agree or disagree. It IS mho:
The problem with internet instructional information is that a lot of it is just plain wrong. Go ahead, sort it all out and use the best if you can. Life's too short to waste your time, though. The same for making multiple instruments from sub-standard wood. The cost of materials will always be the lesser factor if you consider your time is worth anything. Why spend a lot of time to produce something that starts with poor materials and can only go downhill from there? I can always readily find a lot of cheap instruments that sound bad without having to invest a lot of time in the process. Having repeated myself, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to take whatever route they find personally satisfying in learning to build instruments. It's true no one needs my permission to fail (or succeed) as they see fit. It's a free country. I'll comment on just a few of the points that were made. First, I'm pretty sure Bob Taylor learned absolutely nothing by building from pallet wood. To say differently is to put the cart before the horse. The infamous pallet guitar was made to show that if you possess the chops you can indeed make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The average beginner isn't going to pick up a 2X10 from Home Depot and duplicate the results. Regarding why I don't just buy a factory guitar if "life is too short", that's exactly what I did. I actually just sold my $4000 Lowden and purchased a new Recording King 000 slot head. Why? Because like it or not, cheap foreign labor allows me to purchase a decent instrument for less than I would spend on materials. Hopefully you'll understand the simple economics of it. I own nicer instruments, but $300 allows me to schlock it around for bar gigs and whatnot without guilt. Do I build instruments? Sure, but most of the stuff I build are other types of instruments that don't have the mass-market machinery behind them like guitars do. As far as a source of educational materials goes, it doesn't matter where you get your information. I've seen a LOT of web stuff that was just plain wrong, so all I'm really saying is the most important thing for you to learn BEFORE PICKING UP A TOOL is how to separate the wheat from the chaff. Consensus is'nt and never has been a viable way to do it. I'm sure you wouldn't have to think back very far in U.S. or world history to realize consensus just takes a charismatic leader to sway opinion. Like it or not, it's true. One of my first "educational" purchases was one of the few resources available, David Russell Young's guitar building book. I still remember to this day the most important lesson I learned from that book, because I was faced with making the decision on my very first instrument. To paraphrase, it was something to the effect of: "If you've made a mistake that can't be effectively reversed, have the wisdom and strength to destroy what you have made. You will move on and learn from your mistake, but a badly made instrument will haunt you as long as it is around." Lastly, "acceptable" materials don't have to cost much (as has been pointed out), just don't use SUBSTANDARD MATERIALS. All my statements stand as I originally posted. Nobody's making you listen.
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#42
06-16-2013, 07:20 AM
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Alright then, what is substandard materials? I am sure no one is suggesting to use a knot ridden piece of wood for a neck, mind you that same knotty piece of pine might make a nice Telecaster body. As far as the average beginner, probably the kit route is the best direction to take. But not everyone is average. I have my own pieces of pallet wood I want to make into a guitar. Not just for the fact that the wood originally came from a pallet but because I realized the wood was a quarter sawn hardwood that had a grain that might look interesting in a neck. So is it a substandard piece of wood? It might not be as easy to use as a nice piece of mahogany but knowing what to look out for helps.
So now I have a dilemma, being the internet you get contradictory information, one one hand you have a post that says you should destroy your mistakes as they will continually haunt you while another post says that you should keep your early mistakes as it will help you down the road in making better guitars. My first guitar is not perfect but the neck feels just wonderful and I do like the look of the top. Do I use the neck (laminated poplar with maple fretboard) for an archtop or do I just put a pickup on the body as is? Probably will leave it as is until my current parlor guitar is finished. With its flaws I tend to pick it up more often than my mass built acoustic or my G&L electric. 
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#43
06-16-2013, 03:33 PM
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The proverbial example of this was Hitler, how does a man convince a whole nation that exterminating an entire people group is a good idea? I think you will be hard pressed to find the same kind of religious, zealous, unthinking fervor related to some finer point of how to make a guitar. And even if you did, I seriously doubt that the one making such a claim or statement is going to do so on blind faith alone. Voicing a guitar would probably be a good example. Lots of different opinions and thoughts on how that is done. Most people believe rather deeply in their opinion on the subject. But I've yet to read anyone who had a deeply held believe on that subject who came to that belief apart from some serious effort and time expended. So even those kinds of opinions are at least rooted in reality. Just here, I asked a question the other day about jointing material for a sound board. The advice I got was quite sound and I have successfully jointed a number of pieces of wood thanks to that advice. But hey. If it's not your cup of tea...
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#44
06-17-2013, 07:56 PM
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"So is it a substandard piece of wood?"
printer2, As they say, That's a very good question... IMHO the reality of the answer lies in the judgement and acceptance of the builder. Some are quite accepting of instruments built of lower grade materials and some hold themselves to higher standards. There's no right or wrong, especially if one is looking to satisfy only themselves. It's when others (such as customers) are involved that little things like splits from unstable wood become a problem possibly years down the road from when an instrument was built. Part of what appeals to me about luthiery is developing a sense over time about if a particular practice or wood use will result in a good sonding instrument that stands the test of time. Luckily I haven't had any total duds in that respect, but I have more or less followed the advice gleaned from "research sources" as well as lending a considerable amount of horse sense to instrument construction. I mentioned David Russell Young as an early mentor, but I also have to state that I did not take all of his practices as gospel. His neck attachment method was to epoxy bond a flush fitted heel to the instrument body, and I discarded that as rather bad advice. I've since learned that a number of instruments put together by that method did indeed experiance failures, so the horse sense thing is a good thing to keep in mind. Everyone has their own line that they won't cross when considering what to build from, and I quite frankly got a huge chuckle from seeing the first Stu-Mac catalog featuring "knotty pine Tele and Strat bodies". I spend a good deal of money at Stu-Mac each year and I like them, but even they aren't above finding a way to sell c**p wood to the uneducated masses. Good for them, it proves that old adage about how often suckers are born. I started cutting out an electric guitar body out of a piece of old 2X material my dad had laying around when I was about 10 years old. Fortunately I lost interest before I got very far. Even at 1o years of age I realized that this was never going to become the proverbial silk purse.
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#45
06-18-2013, 11:49 AM
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And yet many people find the pine to be resonant and a makes for a sweet sounding guitar.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/guitar-ow...ster-club.html
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