Epiphone Texan from Bozeman. Good idea for Gibson?

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

I also prefer Epiphone archtops to Gibsons. But I am not so sure McCarty bought Epi to because of the double bass. Leo Fender had already moved the bass to a whole different level. Kay had already responded by cutting the number of models they offered. If anything I would think the purchase had more to do with acquiring the rights to the Epiphone Mini humbucker.

In Epiphone: The House of Stathopoulo (P. 59) Jim Fisch cites an interview with Ted McCarty, in which he states that the reason Gibson acquired the company was expressly to acquire the bass-manufacturing machinery; FYI Epiphone's basses had (and still have) an excellent reputation for both tone and durability and, inasmuch as Gibson's own bass-making hardware had been lost during WW II, they were looking to reclaim the position of producing a quality instrument at a time when small-combo jazz was still a significant force (the Fender Precision - not to mention Gibson's own EB-1 violin bass, and the soon-to-be-introduced EB-0 and EB-2 - notwithstanding). It was only after the purchase was made (for $20,000 in 1957 funds) that he and Maurice Berlin discovered that they had bought the entire operation - patents, production hardware, existing parts stocks, instruments-in-progress, NOS completed instruments, factory returns - that McCarty suggested initiating production of Epiphone instruments at the Kalamazoo plant, the rationale being that existing Gibson franchisees would be protected while still allowing CMI to offer a first-quality, name-brand product to vendors of other CMI lines...

In light of the above, I understand your confusion regarding the origin of the Epiphone mini-bucker; in spite of their outward appearance the postwar New York Epiphone pickups were in fact single-coil designs, as were all other commercial electric guitar pickups until Gibson's PAF and Gretsch's Filter'tron were released in mid/late-1957, and were used on early Kalamazoo Epis (as were existing stocks of necks/bodies, the latter appearing as late as early 1964) until the on-hand stock was depleted. The mini-bucker first appeared circa 1961 (around the time the Gibson Johnny Smith was introduced with a similar pickup), with the dual purpose of producing an electronically "modern" unit that strongly resembled traditional Epiphone livery, and maintaining the in-house superiority of the Gibson brand and its full-size humbucker; as it turns out a number of savvy players preferred the cut and clarity of the Epi unit - Al Caiola, John Lee Hooker, Carl Perkins, among others - and Gibson would themselves adopt/adapt the design for several of their own instruments over the next half-century...

A few pics of a transitional Epiphone, made in 1963 from leftover New York parts:

[boldtone]

Originally Posted by Jim Owen

If it had a fancy headstock like this, it was a Sheraton. John Lee Hooker played those. They had mini humbuckers and retailed for more than a 335.

The less ornate version was the Riviera. I remember Otis Rush played one (upside down, of course).

Most folk remember the 330 version played by John (who sanded off the sunburst), George, and Paul.

Epiphones were top notch guitars.

The Beatles had Epiphone Casinos. They were 330-like. Necks were shoved into the body a little deeper than the Sheratons and Rivieras. Easier for young players to manage.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by boldtone

The Beatles had Epiphone Casinos. They were 330-like. Necks were shoved into the body a little deeper than the Sheratons and Rivieras. Easier for young players to manage.

Unlike the Sheraton/Riviera (and their Gibson counterparts) the Casino was a full-hollow thinline with no center block, much like the ES-125TD/Epi Sorrento but in a double-cutaway format; IME the positioning of the bridge in the traditional archtop location - between the inside points of the f-holes - allowed for a certain amount of natural body resonance and "wood" in the tone that was sacrificed in later models (which adopted the higher neck joint of the Gibson/Epiphone semis), and which is noticeable in an A/B comparison if you're playing cleaner styles at moderate volume...

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Unlike the Sheraton/Riviera (and their Gibson counterparts) the Casino was a full-hollow thinline with no center block, much like the ES-125TD/Epi Sorrento but in a double-cutaway format; IME the positioning of the bridge in the traditional archtop location - between the inside points of the f-holes - allowed for a certain amount of natural body resonance and "wood" in the tone that was sacrificed in later models (which adopted the higher neck joint of the Gibson/Epiphone semis), and which is noticeable in an A/B comparison if you're playing cleaner styles at moderate volume...

That (bold), I didn't know. Do you know what year they changed the neck set?

[00 HOG]

I’m actually more intrigued by the new Epiphone Excellente Masterbilt. Those guitars were quite rare and even the Korean reissues command a decent price. I ordered one!

[roylor4]

As someone that was not a Beatles fan, I had no awareness of the Epi Texan and like most of us here, I likely know more about acoustic guitars than the average person.

It seems like a niche product to me. Most folks nowadays (including me) see Epiphone as a Pac-rim product - some of which are fine and giggable, but I certainly don't associate the name with high end guitars - especially acoustic ones.

To me, it doesn't make sense.

I see it as an item that is begging to be discontinued, no matter how good it is.

[Br1ck]

I had no idea of any Epiphone flat top guitars, and certainly no idea McCartney played one when I went on the hunt for a J 45 I could afford that sounded as close to banner era Gibsons that I could get. Unfortunately what I could afford was 60s vintage. I played a few, six or eight of them, being very disappointed in them. I did not play any after 66 that were even fair.

One day I walked into Sylvan in Santa Cruz and they had four 60s J 45s lined up. I thought I'd hit the mother load. Two were dogs, two were quite good, but not good enough. Then I looked across the room to the "lessor brand" wall and there were two Epiphone Texans, one a made in Japan era guitar that was not special, and next to it a Kalamazoo made 65 with what I thought at the time was the ugliest sunburst I'd ever seen. Three hours later I came up for air. My small hands loved the 1 5/8 inch neck. It had the perfect dry old Gibson tone and was priced at absolutely the top dollar and they wouldn't budge.

I had lunch, went back and another two hours flew by. I went home with it. Never one regret. It is a snappier guitar than a J 45 because of the longer neck. Later they had a 68 that was dead sounding. The decade was not Gibson's finest hour, but once in a while they made a great one.

[Stomp]

Would love to see the Epiphone name restored to its former glory, maybe its not too late....?

[Wade Hampton]

Great story, Br1ck - I’m glad to hear you snagged a good one.

Unlike you, however, I have long, spindly fingers - even though I’m fine-boned, I usually have to get XL size gloves simply to find any that I can fit into. So the Gibsons and Epiphones from the 1960’s are borderline unplayable for me. I need more space to be able to cram my fingers in.

Pity...


whm

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by DukeX

That (bold), I didn't know. Do you know what year they changed the neck set?

From Wikipedia:

Though similar in appearance to the popular Gibson ES-335 guitar, the ES-330 is quite different: the 330 is a fully hollow thinline guitar, not a semi-hollow guitar with a center block. Also, the 330 has two single-coil P-90 pickups, in contrast with the two humbuckers on the 335.

The 330 neck originally joined the body at the 16th fret, not the 19th, like the 335. In 1967/1968, Gibson changed it to join at the 19th fret. Current Gibson reissues are known at ES-330L to denote this longer ('L') feeling neck, and reissues of pre-68 330s have the 16th fret join as they would have originally. Note that the scale length of both models (16-fret and 19-fret) is the same, the body is just different (the 16-fret model has markedly taller upper bouts and thus more hollow body area)

For comparison purposes the first 330 dates from '66, the second from '68 - note the relative position of the bridges vis-a-vis the neck joints, as well as the size/shape of the pickguards:







- and here's a full-front shot of a '64 RI - note that the bridge is centered between the interior points of the f-holes, as on the '63 Emperor posted previously:

[boldtone]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Unlike the Sheraton/Riviera (and their Gibson counterparts) the Casino was a full-hollow thinline with no center block, much like the ES-125TD/Epi Sorrento but in a double-cutaway format; IME the positioning of the bridge in the traditional archtop location - between the inside points of the f-holes - allowed for a certain amount of natural body resonance and "wood" in the tone that was sacrificed in later models (which adopted the higher neck joint of the Gibson/Epiphone semis), and which is noticeable in an A/B comparison if you're playing cleaner styles at moderate volume...

Yup. Hollow. Probably had a small block under the bridge. I had a year 2000 Korean Casino for a very short time. Was a very bad '2nd' that shouldn't have ever left Korea. Wasn't marked as a '2nd' however.

[boldtone]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

I had no idea of any Epiphone flat top guitars, and certainly no idea McCartney played one when I went on the hunt for a J 45 I could afford that sounded as close to banner era Gibsons that I could get. Unfortunately what I could afford was 60s vintage. I played a few, six or eight of them, being very disappointed in them. I did not play any after 66 that were even fair.

One day I walked into Sylvan in Santa Cruz and they had four 60s J 45s lined up. I thought I'd hit the mother load. Two were dogs, two were quite good, but not good enough. Then I looked across the room to the "lessor brand" wall and there were two Epiphone Texans, one a made in Japan era guitar that was not special, and next to it a Kalamazoo made 65 with what I thought at the time was the ugliest sunburst I'd ever seen. Three hours later I came up for air. My small hands loved the 1 5/8 inch neck. It had the perfect dry old Gibson tone and was priced at absolutely the top dollar and they wouldn't budge.

I had lunch, went back and another two hours flew by. I went home with it. Never one regret. It is a snappier guitar than a J 45 because of the longer neck. Later they had a 68 that was dead sounding. The decade was not Gibson's finest hour, but once in a while they made a great one.

In 1964 when I was 13, I took guitar lessons for a short while at a local music shop. The guitar I got to play there was a new all-mahogany Epiphone flat top. Compared to what I had at home it was a dream to play. My guitar was a Wards Airline archtop that was new and cost $30. A little work and that thing may have been playable. But what did I know back then. And lessons took about all the cash I could muster. Loved that Epiphone!!!

[ataylor]

I think it's great to see some USA-made Epiphones that aren't super-limited, super expensive editions. I think $2700 is MSRP for a J-45 as well, and I expect these to be made by the same folks with the same materials, but with the details that make it a Texan, such as a long scale.

Very interested to see what the Casinos are like when they come out. I've got a Chinese-made Lennon reissue from 10–12 years ago that is pretty nice, but I'd like to compare it to the USA version when they start making them.

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Unlike the Sheraton/Riviera (and their Gibson counterparts) the Casino was a full-hollow thinline with no center block

I believe the ES-330 is a true hollow-body guitar as well, at least in the configurations I've seen. If I had an exorbitant amount of money to spend on guitars, I'd own one in Pelham blue.

[RP]

Made in the USA for the first time in over 50 years!
Since 1958, the Epiphone Texan has been the inspiration for generations of world-class songwriters including Paul McCartney, Peter Frampton and Noel Gallagher of Oasis. Now, the Texan is made in the USA once again and is proudly handcrafted in Bozeman, Montana by Gibson’s finest acoustic luthiers. Featuring all solid woods, X-bracing, and a 25.5” scale length for a powerful tone. Available in Antique Natural and Vintage Sunburst. Featuring Gibson Strings.

Despite Epiphone's storied past, I think this is going to be a tough hill to climb...

[Watasha]

Originally Posted by island texan

Lots of good thoughts here, and thanks for passing on to those who didn't know some of the history of brand. I have a Hoboken-made Guild from the mid-sixties when that company was putting out first class acoustics and seen in the same broad family of Gibson and Martin (pre-Taylor years). Historically management was a horror show and the factory's movement all over the country and various sales and acquisitions didn't help the image. When they finally moved manufacturing to the Pac Rim, Guild, like Epiphone and few others, moved into the realm of what I call high-end budget guitars. As many of us on this forum know, Guild is now trying to re-invent itself domestically. Like Epiphone, their Asian versions IMO are really pretty darn good and still being made. But with the move back home, the company has to boost prices and justify that with commiserate workmanship and performance. What I see maybe coming with Epiphone/Gibson is sort of like Guild, struggling with the average consumer about the difference in their $400 guitars and their $4,000 guitars. Is that what Epiphone is going to start doing?

You make some interesting correlations, yet Guild & Epiphone are in two different stratospheres IMO, at least since the Gibson acquisition of Epiphone back in the day. Many of the early Guild workers in Hoboken were actually former Epi employees BTW. That said, Guild has always maintained a USA presence, unlike Epiphone, who have for the most part been relegated to the lower end market. So while there are commonalities between the two brands, I think the vast majority of folks (especially musicians) see Guild as much more a competitor to Gibson/Martin/Taylor than Epiphone. I mean, the first guitar bearing the Guild name produced overseas wasn't until post-2000 I believe.

I do hope Gibson gives Epi its just due however. Epiphone has a great history & deserves more than simply being a Gibson knockoff. I hear that the new Epiphone "Inspired by Gibson" designs are quite nice.