True Temperament Curly Frets

[steveyam]

The other thing is, when you bend a string, does its note increase in a non-linear, unexpected kind of way? kinda 'jumping' from one note to the next, like Cher's voice on 'Believe' ? That's gotta hurt.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by steveyam

The other thing is, when you bend a string, does its note increase in a non-linear, unexpected kind of way? kinda 'jumping' from one note to the next, like Cher's voice on 'Believe' ? That's gotta hurt.

Since the string behaves like a spring to a good approximation and the spring force is linearly proportional to displacement, I would say it's linear.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by robj144

Since the string behaves like a spring to a good approximation and the spring force is linearly proportional to displacement, I would say it's linear.

Well, that clarifies the matter ....

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by robj144

Since the string behaves like a spring to a good approximation and the spring force is linearly proportional to displacement, I would say it's linear.

You're only taking the spring force into consideration, you're disregarding the fact that it is a FRETTED string, (not an open string/spring), and that fret is not straight, it's wonky. So, as you push the string across it, its note changes in an unlinear way. I mean clearly, it cannot work the same as when you bend a string across a straight fret can it? There has to be a difference in the rate of change of the note, and that's far from 'normal' given the shape of those frets.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by steveyam

You're only taking the spring force into consideration, you're disregarding the fact that it is a FRETTED string, (not an open string/spring), and that fret is not straight, it's wonky. So, as you push the string across it, its note changes in an unlinear way. I mean clearly, it cannot work the same as when you bend a string across a straight fret can it? There has to be a difference in the rate of change of the note, and that's far from 'normal' given the shape of those frets.

Yes, good point....that maybe true.

[TimberlineGuy]

has anybody considered that having absolutely PERFECT intonation may not be that great of a thing? I honestly don't know the answer to this question. But for each key on a piano, isn't there 3 strings? and isn't each one tuned to a ever so slightly different pitch? I thought I remember hearing that somewhere... that it gave it a fuller sound and prevented dissonance.... but I'm just merely providing questions and looking for answers.....


On the other hand, my straight frets work fine for me. and fan-frets make more sense.

[Matt Mustapick]

Originally Posted by TimberlineGuy

isn't there 3 strings? and isn't each one tuned to a ever so slightly different pitch? I thought I remember hearing that somewhere...

I saw where someone said that and I'm *highly* skeptical, though I know nothing about tuning pianos beyond the details I could learn from watching it being done and asking questions whenever the tuner (really nice guy) came to our house twice a year. Temperament can never be perfect, there is no such thing. But the intonation characteristics of an instrument should be as perfect as possible. It's easy enough (perhaps even unavoidable) for a player to make the intonation imperfect with their playing technique, but an instrument may as well be as precise and as close to perfect as it can be so that any imprecision is the player's option/responsibility.

Temperament and intonation are not the same thing. Regardless of what temperament an instrument is designed for, its intonation can be accurate or inaccurate. For any temperamant, I want accurate intonation.

[TimberlineGuy]

Originally Posted by Matt Mustapick

I saw where someone said that and I'm *highly* skeptical, though I know nothing about tuning pianos beyond the details I could learn from watching it being done and asking questions whenever the tuner (really nice guy) came to our house twice a year. Temperament can never be perfect, there is no such thing. But the intonation characteristics of an instrument should be as perfect as possible. It's easy enough (perhaps even unavoidable) for a player to make the intonation imperfect with their playing technique, but an instrument may as well be as precise and as close to perfect as it can be so that any imprecision is the player's option/responsibility.

Temperament and intonation are not the same thing. Regardless of what temperament an instrument is designed for, its intonation can be accurate or inaccurate. For any temperamant, I want accurate intonation.

Thanks Matt! sorry if I get my terms mixed up! I'm a player, not a builder I guess if we can eliminate as many variables as possible, I might sound better! Sure, I'll take good intonation over bad!

[cotten]

Originally Posted by TimberlineGuy

...I honestly don't know the answer to this question. But for each key on a piano, isn't there 3 strings? and isn't each one tuned to a ever so slightly different pitch? I thought I remember hearing that somewhere... that it gave it a fuller sound and prevented dissonance.... but I'm just merely providing questions and looking for answers.....

This is not correct, at least for any piano tuner I've ever known. Since my Dad was a Piano Technicians Guild Tuner/Examiner, that's been a good many.

The problem with this is that when the three strings of a single treble piano note (two in the tenor and one in the bass) are slightly out of tune with each other, the difference in their pitches tend to cancel each other out, setting up "beats" in the sound, that “whah – whah” effect that acoustic tuners use to determine whether or not the strings are in tune with each other or their neighbors. When those three strings have the same frequency, they reinforce one another, making the piano sound louder, richer and fuller.

I would not consider using a piano tech who told me that he deliberately de-tuned unison strings, unless I was deliberately going for that out-of-tune, honky-tonk piano tone.

That said, it would be good to note at this point that pianos use a modified form of equal temperament. This is because of "inharmonicity" of the strings. That is, "their harmonic series do not fall exactly into whole-number multiples of their fundamental frequency; instead each harmonic runs slightly sharp." (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning)

This causes a good piano tech to use what is called a Stretch Factor, which varies among the various sizes and types of pianos. As my Dad's hearing deteriorated, he bought a Sanderson Accu-Tuner http://www.accu-tuner.com/productmain.html which allowed him to store the Stretch Factors for each piano he maintained. (It was also handy for tuning in noisy environments.)

With just 6 strings, usually, and relatively little tension, we guitarists have it very easy when it comes to tuning, compared to pianists!

cotten

[dawhealer]

Originally Posted by steveyam

I am not a fan of these idiosyncratic, oddball fretting methods. Just not necessary. To the inventor, I am sure they mean 'the world'.

I'm with ya on that. For that matter, I'm not much of a fan of anything that's idiosyncratic and oddball if it's going to be used every day, be it guitars, cars, motorcycles, kitchen knives, whatever. Been burned too many times by such descriptions as "new," "revolutionary," "radical." I now prefer "has stood the test of time." Yeah, I'm probably pretty boring to some people, but I can live with that.

[Jobe]

Well, I just gave up piano right before I was about to start.

[ako]

As an engineering student, I like to see these kinds of innovations. Sure it may not be perfect, but it's pretty cool, and innovations such as these may be studied and used to make improvements in our fretboards in the future- ones that maybe none of us thought we needed. Nothing was ever improved being content with the status quo.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by ako

As an engineering student, I like to see these kinds of innovations. Sure it may not be perfect, but it's pretty cool, and innovations such as these may be studied and used to make improvements in our fretboards in the future- ones that maybe none of us thought we needed. Nothing was ever improved being content with the status quo.

That's true enough, but the flip side of the coin is that there have always been lots of idiosyncratic ideas and gadgets that will supposedly improve all sorts of things with guitars, but which don't offer enough of an advantage to ever become widely adopted. These ideas will have their fans, but most guitarists manage to do just fine without them.

When a genuinely valuable innovation DOES come along, it revolutionizes the marketplace. I can think of precisely two musical instrument-specific innovations that have come along in all the years I've been playing that have had this sort of immense influence: the Floyd Rose Tremolo and the invention of coated strings by Gore Elixir.

Those were both game-changers. Curly frets are not anywhere close to being in the same league.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Jason Paul]

Every time I see a fretboard like this, I wonder how it sounds when played with another guitar, or a fretted bass. It seems to me that it would be slightly out of tune relative to the normally-fretted guitars.

Jason

[Roger G Lewis]

The true temprement system does have single Key formulas as mentioned above these are good for one key only.

Q: What happens when True Temperament guitars are used with other guitars, bass, piano etc?
A: Our 12-Tone Equal Temperament versions tune considerably better against keyboards than "ordinary" guitars. Against other guitars they can highlight the tuning problems which plague "ordinary" guitars - the problems which True Temperament was developed to solve. The effect is seldom disturbing, however, it manifests itself as a sort of "chorusing".

Our Well tempered versions work just fine together with "ordinary" instruments. The offsets from Equal Temper are not so severe that they normally create dissonance. Each Well temperament has its own unique personality which never sounds "wrong", on the contrary they enrich the musical interplay. One could describe them as different dialects of the same musical language.

Meantone Blues is a special case, and is not intended for use with instruments in other temperaments.

http://www.guyguitars.com/truetemper...html#ttvnormal

On pitch and pitch inflation I made a video using 432 HZ A tuning and there is some fascinating stuff regarding the 440 hz convention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtpErn9Ohx8

http://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blo...ubjective.html
There is also lots of discussion regarding the subjective nature of variables adopted in predictive models a lot of effort is usually put into justifying measures assumed to cancel out or prevent compounding these biases. Take a look at Kant for starters regarding a prioiri and a posteriori knowledge.
As for musical notes A at 440hz still doesn't get you home. The laws of Harmony are one thing but the intervals in the chord of nature are infinite and it is completely arbitrary the way in which it is divided. We use the Octave in the west this is not universal indeed the Germans have H instead of B and of course the incidentals are named for whether one is ascending or descending. Playing music offers we musicians a lot of options even when following strict conventions of Harmony the main rule of Jazz and blues is however that there are no rules music is about feelings and there is a really unpredictable thing another point on little old A there are several different flavours on my Guitar I can play it in 7 different places up to the 12th fret in 3 different octaves where I choose to play it is totally subjective no choice is right or wrong it is a matter of taste and convenience whether i choose to play the A chord with the root on any of those A notes or choose to use any inversion of the A chord is also a valid choice which again is purely dependant of the feel I want to go for.I what sense musical notes are anything other than subjective I do not know If one wishes to play with other musicians one harmonises with them this can be done by ear on frettless instruments this allows complete freedom to play an infinite number of notes the laws of harmony can be observed but predicting the music that is played would be impossible. as would naming the notes or the key. With skilled musicians used to playing by ear it would sound very nice.

http://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf