What is effect of lattice bracing vs tone bars?

[fregly]

I see Somogyi, Greenfield, DeJonge amd others (not entirely sure about the first two) use a lattice grid instead of Martin style or similar type tone bars at the lower x bracing. How does this effect the sound and response differently from more familiar bracing there. The whole design matters obviously, Just wondering.......as I have an eye on a guitar that has such.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by fregly

I have an eye on a guitar that has such.

The obvious answer is to play the guitar and determine for yourself what it does or does not sound like. And, more importantly, if you like that sound.

At one of his lectures, Sergei spoke at some length about lattice bracing. He stated that,"Lattice braced guitars sound very bright and focused, but you don’t hear that in a concert hall." He attributes the origin of lattice bracing to Pat Lister who's influences brought Larrivee to make a lattice braced (classical) guitar in 1974.

Most of his discussion on lattice bracing, and his daughters embracing of it, centred around its use in classical guitars. In the classical guitar world, lattice bracing often sounds "brighter" tending, in my opinion, towards a lute-like sound. They are often described as being louder which is why many classical concert players like them - they get more volume. I'm not sure how relevant that is to steel string guitars.

[Talldad]

Somogyi has written a great book, well worth the money on guitar design and how each and every element of the build will affect the overall system, hence the final timbre of the music you play. A skilled luthier will listen to their client and discover what sound they are looking for, they will then adapt each component to steer the machine in the right direction.

Lattice or fan bracing may be one of the options for building a guitar with lower string tensions. X bracing maybe a preferred option for higher string tensions.

[fregly]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The obvious answer is to play the guitar and determine for yourself what it does or does not sound like. And, more importantly, if you like that sound.

At one of his lectures, Sergei spoke at some length about lattice bracing. He stated that,"Lattice braced guitars sound very bright and focused, but you don’t hear that in a concert hall." He attributes the origin of lattice bracing to Pat Lister who's influences brought Larrivee to make a lattice braced (classical) guitar in 1974.

Most of his discussion on lattice bracing, and his daughters embracing of it, centred around its use in classical guitars. In the classical guitar world, lattice bracing often sounds "brighter" tending, in my opinion, towards a lute-like sound. They are often described as being louder which is why many classical concert players like them - they get more volume. I'm not sure how relevant that is to steel string guitars.

I will not be able to audition the guitar. My only experience with a lattice braced steel string was one of Sergei's, long ago, and I can't remember much about it. I know I played a DeJonge of course, and not a "lattice" guitar.

[IndianHillMike]

I built (maybe?) 4 lattice braced guitars for Sergei when I was apprenticing with him and I don't really remember but maybe one of those was a steel string. It's much more common for him to do a lattice on a classical. On my own I've built a bunch of lattice braced steel strings but only ever when they've had an elevated neck -- for whatever reason I always thought the increased vertical pull on the top and a lattice made sense together. I've always been super pleased with the results and the lattice seems to tighten and focus things a bit. It's hard to describe, but if a guitar's tone was like a wispy cloud, a lattice pattern seems more like a wooden laser. Still rich and powerful but less airy and more focused.

[fregly]

Originally Posted by IndianHillMike

I built (maybe?) 4 lattice braced guitars for Sergei when I was apprenticing with him and I don't really remember but maybe one of those was a steel string. It's much more common for him to do a lattice on a classical. On my own I've built a bunch of lattice braced steel strings but only ever when they've had an elevated neck -- for whatever reason I always thought the increased vertical pull on the top and a lattice made sense together. I've always been super pleased with the results and the lattice seems to tighten and focus things a bit. It's hard to describe, but if a guitar's tone was like a wispy cloud, a lattice pattern seems more like a wooden laser. Still rich and powerful but less airy and more focused.

I like the description. I am actually looking at the Singapore builder Ho Zen/Maestro. He is Somogyi influenced, but perhaps that is just PR stuff. The recorded sound of his lattice builds sound pretty delineated, which works for me for what I tend to do. The inner pics I've seen of Sergei's steel string builds have all had lattice. I am sure he has done all kinds throughout his career though.

[Alan Carruth]

On most 'normal' guitars the mass of the bracing is small relative to that of the top plate itself. All of the bracing, not counting the bridge, on an x-braced steel string might make up 25%-30% of the total top weight. The idea behind lattice bracing is to reduce the unsupported span of the top in between bracing. This allows you to thin out the top without it distorting too much, and reduce the weight without necessarily reducing the stiffness. The ultimate in that is Smallman's classical design, which uses carbon fiber and balsa to make the lattice, and a top that's only about .8 mm (.032") thick that only acts as a membrane to move air. All of the load is on the lattice. You can reduce the overall mass of the soundboard by half or more, and since the power output tends to be proportional to the area/mass you get more power.

The only one those I ever got to try sounded more like a resophonic than a classical guitar, but it was LOUD. That sort of 'brash' sound smooths out some in large hall, but it had no appeal for me.