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  #76  
Old 09-22-2021, 01:04 AM
Brick is Red Brick is Red is offline
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Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
Oh I hear you and did not take it that way! I honestly forgot until it dawned on me with your post. And certainly agree that these permutations where minor variations on a theme. As I said before, different should not be conflated with innovative.
I saw where you said this before. But, you’re begging the question. Different is a necessary, but not sufficient quality in any innovation. Stating a conclusory assertion that v-class bracing is different doesn’t tend to prove or disprove whether or not v-class bracing is, in fact, an innovation.

Evidence deeply suggestive of there being a bona fide innovation in producing acoustic guitars with v-bracing can be found in the USPTO granting a patent to Taylor with Andy Powers as “inventor” of this new form of internal acoustic guitar bracing. Similarly, Bob Taylor was granted a patent for the relief route famously touted in Taylor’s marketing materials for many years. Surely, we can agree that the relief route was an innovation.

Whether v-bracing is ever adopted by other acoustic guitar builders, and whether or not v-class bracing is favored or disfavored in the market has no bearing on the question of innovation.

Last edited by Brick is Red; 09-22-2021 at 09:41 AM.
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  #77  
Old 09-22-2021, 03:31 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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AGFers: It all comes down to this doesn't it? If a Taylor guitar with V-Class Bracing sounds good to your ears, consider buying it. If it doesn't sound good, don't buy it.

Now, let's get into a really deep question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? First, we need to consider how big is the head of the pin in question and is it a flat-top or radiused head? Then what size angels are we considering? Then, again, ...
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  #78  
Old 09-22-2021, 07:09 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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A thread with "V Class" or some derivative such as "V braced" is guaranteed to turn into a long, lively thread with a lot of repetition. I have come to believe that is the incentive for starting these types of threads - it gives us something to post about.

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  #79  
Old 09-22-2021, 07:35 AM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
Respectfully, an opposing opinion that questions accepted dogma is neither negative nor disrespectful unless it attacks ad hominem. Quite the contrary, it can be a little passive aggressive to misconstrue free opinions as disrespectful to protect the status quo.

For myself, I would gladly say all that I have said in a friendly conversation with anyone at Taylor over beers that I purchased. Heck, I bet the outcome would be my buying one of their guitars! But my statements and opinions remain unapologetic.
Gotta admit the irony of using the phrases '"questions accepted dogma" ... and.... "is neither negative or disrespectful" in the same sentence, gave me chuckle ........

Given the word "dogma" is a negative in connotation , and to assert that people "accept dogma" is disrespectful , and falls under the definition of ad hominem attack.


BTW to make a change to something established, is part of the definition of "innovate"

in·no·vate | ˈinəˌvāt |
verb [no object]
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products:

We get it,,,, you don't like Taylor's sound which in and of itself, is subjectively fine and completely valid ,,,, but is definitely negative in phrasing it as " all sound brittle"
And you chose to view Taylors marketing as "treating you like a dunce".... But that is something you manifested for yourself,,, and is simply your interpretation about their marketing , and not something Taylor actually did, said, or brought into , to their Marketing ....
The reality is the words we use, are almost always a fairly clear window, into how really feel and what we actually think ....

Absolutely nothing in Taylors V Class marketing made me "feel" purchasing my 1997 X braced 810 ce, was a "dunce" move ,, or was anything other than having purchased a great guitar...... Juss sayin'
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Last edited by KevWind; 09-22-2021 at 08:28 AM.
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  #80  
Old 09-22-2021, 08:35 AM
GCWaters GCWaters is offline
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I have a hard time understanding the argument that the V-class bracing--or anything Taylor says about it--negatively impacts my X-braced Taylor.

Martin's ads and PR don't impact how I feel about my Taylor...neither do their guitars. Gibson's ads and PR don't impact how I feel about my Strat and Tele, and neither do their guitars.

I own what I own because I like it....if you're so insecure that Taylor's ads make you feel bad about your X-braced guitar, I don't think the issue is with Taylor...
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  #81  
Old 09-22-2021, 08:41 AM
LakewoodM32Fan LakewoodM32Fan is online now
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Originally Posted by GCWaters View Post
I have a hard time understanding the argument that the V-class bracing--or anything Taylor says about it--negatively impacts my X-braced Taylor.

Martin's ads and PR don't impact how I feel about my Taylor...neither do their guitars. Gibson's ads and PR don't impact how I feel about my Strat and Tele, and neither do their guitars.

I own what I own because I like it....if you're so insecure that Taylor's ads make you feel bad about your X-braced guitar, I don't think the issue is with Taylor...
I think the issue most people have (not me, as I just chalked it up as over-the-top marketing) was that Andy himself in the early press videos talked about all the issues of X-bracing that V- purportedly "solved". The implication being that he talked down about X-braced guitars. That hurt people's feelings and thus the visceral reaction.

With regards to Martin's ads and PR, it is interesting how they don't get nearly the backlash here that Taylor does. It seems every few years they put out "more authentic Authentics" than the previous Authentics. Logically, one should be upset that the "Authentic" you just spent $5K or more on just a few years ago is suddenly not really Authentic anymore. And rest assured this Authentic you buy today will be superseded by something more Authentic in 2023. I think the main difference is they don't talk down at their previous authentics like Powers did with X-bracing. They just say that the newly released Authentic is "the most authentic" and people don't take the logical leap where it implies that previous Authentics weren't so authentic.

And that's about the most I've ever used the word "authentic" in my life.
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  #82  
Old 09-22-2021, 08:53 AM
GCWaters GCWaters is offline
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Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan View Post
I think the issue most people have (not me, as I just chalked it up as over-the-top marketing) was that Andy himself in the early press videos talked about all the issues of X-bracing that V- purportedly "solved". The implication being that he talked down about X-braced guitars. That hurt people's feelings and thus the visceral reaction.

With regards to Martin's ads and PR, it is interesting how they don't get nearly the backlash here that Taylor does. It seems every few years they put out "more authentic Authentics" than the previous Authentics. Logically, one should be upset that the "Authentic" you just spent $5K or more on just a few years ago is suddenly not really Authentic anymore. And rest assured this Authentic you buy today will be superseded by something more Authentic in 2023. I think the main difference is they don't talk down at their previous authentics like Powers did with X-bracing. They just say that the newly released Authentic is "the most authentic" and people don't take the logical leap where it implies that previous Authentics weren't so authentic.

And that's about the most I've ever used the word "authentic" in my life.
Still don't get it...
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  #83  
Old 09-22-2021, 09:59 AM
scotchnspeed scotchnspeed is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Gotta admit the irony of using the phrases '"questions accepted dogma" ... and.... "is neither negative or disrespectful" in the same sentence, gave me chuckle ........

Given the word "dogma" is a negative in connotation , and to assert that people "accept dogma" is disrespectful , and falls under the definition of ad hominem attack.


BTW to make a change to something established, is part of the definition of "innovate"

in·no·vate | ˈinəˌvāt |
verb [no object]
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products:

We get it,,,, you don't like Taylor's sound which in and of itself, is subjectively fine and completely valid ,,,, but is definitely negative in phrasing it as " all sound brittle"
And you chose to view Taylors marketing as "treating you like a dunce".... But that is something you manifested for yourself,,, and is simply your interpretation about their marketing , and not something Taylor actually did, said, or brought into , to their Marketing ....
The reality is the words we use, are almost always a fairly clear window, into how really feel and what we actually think ....

Absolutely nothing in Taylors V Class marketing made me "feel" purchasing my 1997 X braced 810 ce, was a "dunce" move ,, or was anything other than having purchased a great guitar...... Juss sayin'
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  #84  
Old 09-22-2021, 10:13 AM
12barBill 12barBill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan View Post
I think the issue most people have (not me, as I just chalked it up as over-the-top marketing) was that Andy himself in the early press videos talked about all the issues of X-bracing that V- purportedly "solved". The implication being that he talked down about X-braced guitars. That hurt people's feelings and thus the visceral reaction.
I don't think "most people" have an "issue" about any of this.

The few who do, for some reason, seem to enjoy some sort of justification by expressing their dislike for Taylor guitars in general, and V bracing is just the latest punching bag.
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  #85  
Old 09-24-2021, 03:32 PM
Taylor Ham Taylor Ham is offline
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Originally Posted by wisedennis View Post
Why did APPLE remove HOME button since iPhone X?


It could be that the home button is breaking down. I use an old iPhone 6 and the home button sometimes doesnt respond anymore. If they eliminated that component it would probably be one less failure point. I don't like getting rid of it though, because it's convenient and fast. It's also what I'm used to.

Coupled with the strong marketing, I completely understand why someone would dislike V bracing for a similar reason. but claiming that it's a solely a cost saving move, or a weaker design than X bracing seems beside the point.
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  #86  
Old 09-26-2021, 11:34 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by PeteyPower16 View Post
I am speculating as to why Taylor made the switch. Was it purely for tonal reasons? Was it to distinguish itself from Martin, and also from earlier Taylor, boosting demands or new sales? Was it to save money per build?
The object behind the development of the V-bracing, as I understand it, was to achieve a better balance between volume and sustain and to reduce harmonic distortion. The soundboard, like an amplifier, alters harmonics so they deviate even more from multiples of the fundamental notes. In other words, Andy Powers wanted to improve the intonation of the soundboard, not the intonation of the fretboard and strings.

I don’t think economizing was a factor. If one considers the development costs, it is unlikely that V-bracing reduced costs to a meaningful degree at all. I also don’t think tone was a primary goal.
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  #87  
Old 09-26-2021, 11:40 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by wisedennis View Post
Why did APPLE remove HOME button since iPhone X?
Removing the HOME button allowed for a larger display without increasing the overall dimensions of the phone.
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  #88  
Old 09-26-2021, 01:02 PM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
Removing the HOME button allowed for a larger display without increasing the overall dimensions of the phone.
It was hard getting used to it being gone, but the extra screen space is great. Now if they can just give user choice over how the notch works they'll really be onto something.
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  #89  
Old 09-26-2021, 02:51 PM
TedBPhx TedBPhx is offline
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Wasn’t interested in Taylor before the V brace. The “improves intonation” marketing got me as I contemplated what to do with my ‘79 D-35 and its mis-cut bridge and very thick X braces. Didn’t bother me when I stuck to hootenanny cowboy chords and didn’t know better. Then I started learning jazz and couldn’t stand the intonation above the 5th fret on the Martin. Bought an 814. Never looked back.
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  #90  
Old 09-27-2021, 09:25 AM
PeteyPower16 PeteyPower16 is offline
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From the last few posts, it sounds to me like the focus of the V brace was specifically to improve sustain and intonation up the neck—factors that more complex/experienced players are likely to notice and appreciate, which probably drove the innovation.

To that goal, I think the V bracing succeeds in its intent, with some side effects that range from negligible to noticeable depending on who is playing/listening.

Perhaps my playing style (strummed chords around the first several frets) does not make use of this advantage, which may affect my appreciation of the V bracing change. Still, it is good to know the rationale and also that these advantages are built in to the latest models.
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