V Class Bracing: why did Taylor make the change?

[LakewoodM32Fan]

"Very true on the first point, though I would suggest it is human nature to do so in order for brands to truly last."

I guess we'll only truly know the answer to this in 50+ years (which I may or may not be alive to see, but God willing I hope to be). But based on Taylor sales, their inability to have a classic tone doesn't seem to have hurt them so far, and they're what, forty years into their existence and continue to be one of the big dominators of the market.

Here's admittedly just a total anecdote. I've moved on a few Martins and Taylors to consignment. All in the 4K and up range. The ones that sold the quickest were the Taylors, including two V-braced ones. I'm fairly sure they weren't bought by AGFers, but they were snapped up quickly at not-so-discounted prices. I ended up making most of my money back because I got great deals on them in the first place (well under MSRP) so the resale got me close to the original amount paid. The biggest loss was to consignment fees but that was something I was happy to pay due to not having to deal with the selling process at all (I dislike the haggling part, at least from the seller's side).

[JERZEY]

Taylor has always made a name by going against the grain and doing the "other thing". The entire business model has been "Be good at being different". Companies that operate like this dont stay in one place for to long. Everything they have is because they did what nobody else was doing at the time. If they dont keep changing they loose there place in the market.

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by scotchnspeed

Tone and playability is debatable, but...

Point of fact, Taylor has changed its "formula" (if we define that as bracing patterns/construction designs) more than ANY manufacturer in the past 30 years. It simply is not a company that is staked on a "formula" by any stretch. This is exactly why there are camps that prefer the Golden Age (94-98), the mid 2000's, the Advanced bracing or whatever, and the latest V. They are ALL different bracing designs (which all sound brittle, but different nonetheless).

Take the basic 810 as an example, which in the past 25 years has seen:

X bracing
WMB bracing
Performance
Advanced Performance
AP Relief Route
Redesigned 800 series
V bracing

(I know I probably dont have the names exactly right, but the point holds).

That's an average of one pattern every 3.5 years or so. I think it is reasonable to suggest there is not only no formula, but also an inability to stick with something and create an actual venerable sound that stands a chance to become classic.

Just for point of clarity.

Just looked at video from 2012. 800 series Taylors then had "CV" bracing with a relief route. CV bracing was an X brace pattern with scalloped braces and the relief route simply a channel around edge of the top to increase vibration. The next change was around 2015-16 (I believe) the first by Andy Powers which for the 800 series was Advanced Performance bracing. It was also still an X braced top but the braces specific to guitar shape and the back braces were angled and tapered supposedly to increase the bass response. Performance bracing, on the 300 thru 700 series still X braced but less scalloped and no angled back braces, supposedly for a more traditional sound.

The next and of course most recent change to the 800 series was/is V class bracing.

[jimmy bookout]

My opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it...

I have no clue why Taylor made the change. What I know is that, for my ears, the BEST sounding Taylor I ever heard was a lefty 814CE from the 2013-2018 era, the "reimagined" X braced guitars. I played one at Gruhns and could not believe how good it was (I would have bought it had it NOT had electronics). Every V guitar I've played (which is not many, being a lefty) left me cold.

[scotchnspeed]

Originally Posted by FOG01

Just for point of clarity.

Just looked at video from 2012. 800 series Taylors then had "CV" bracing with a relief route. CV bracing was an X brace pattern with scalloped braces and the relief route simply a channel around edge of the top to increase vibration. The next change was around 2015-16 (I believe) the first by Andy Powers which for the 800 series was Advanced Performance bracing. It was also still an X braced top but the braces specific to guitar shape and the back braces were angled and tapered supposedly to increase the bass response. Performance bracing, on the 300 thru 700 series still X braced but less scalloped and no angled back braces, supposedly for a more traditional sound.

The next and of course most recent change to the 800 series was/is V class bracing.

Ah yes, CV! Sorry about that, but does not appear to change the bracing count?

[Brent Hutto]

Taylor seem to have a business "formula" that includes making bracing changes every few years. In that sense Taylor are more like Apple than like Martin in their product line evolution.

[jkilgour2000]

To sell more guitars

[Kevin Bishop]

I will garner a lot of discussion here. My point is that Bob Taylor and his partner made the Taylor Corporation Employee Owned. I get that and it is great. They could have been bought out by Martin, Gibson, etc. when Bob and his partner retire soon.

Then they hired Andy. He was the genesis behind the V class bracing. This was his idea to put his trademark on the great line of acoustics that were all the incarnation of Bob and his partner. I have watched TONS of videos and interviews. When Andy plays a guitar, he makes it his own. He knows what to do and the language that accompanies his interviews known.


As far a Taylor.

I really did a lot of research. I think this guy Andy Powers, who is a great guitarist, kills it in his demos. I watched and re-watched and then re-re-watched him play and he purposely does stuff to make the guitar and his (yes his) new philosophy of V bracing come off like it is the next best thing to Excedrin. Bob Taylor even stated in an interview that we both played the same guitar and (Bob can play) the folks said that I sounded like crap and the guitar was crap but when Andy Powers picked it up they all wanted to get on the "watch list" and pre-order. On other many videos that were not way produced, the whole line sounded very " tin-ey".

So what I am saying is that Andy is putting his own stamp on the Taylor line moving forward, he is a master Luthier and wants an accomplishment moving forward as he will be the grand poo-ba in the Taylor organization.

My thoughts only, would love your candid feedback to my research.

I was on the fence for the past two weeks on my 36th Wedding Anniversary present to myself. The best price point that I could match was the Taylor 312 CE. I bought this instead. An Eastman AC622CE.

This Guitar is handmade, and to come even close to it would have been in the $4-6K range from Taylor.

For the price, the Eastman is under $2K with shipping in US Dollars.

I get it on Thursday, before 7:00 pm and I can not wait. More to follow!

[Kevin Bishop]

Originally Posted by GoPappy

Whatever the reason for the change, I suspect Taylor will use this as an opportunity in a few years to re-introduce a lineup with X-bracing as a "back to our roots" series. And charge a premium price for them. Much like Martin did with their Authentic series.

......Exactly!

[Kevin Bishop]

Originally Posted by Ozarkpicker

I may be out of place here...but it seems there are a lot of players who dislike the changes in tonality in Taylor guitars since the bracing change. Andy just came onboard (or at least recently) as a genuine partner with Taylor guitars...and I just think, like a lot of young engineer types...he wanted to justify his new level of corporate status, by putting his "signature" on virtually every model in the Taylor line. No shame in that game...but maybe it's cost Taylor more than prospered them.

And, of course now...it's way too late in the game to admit that they might have gone too far, might have "advanced" beyond what appeals to the general guitar playing public that might be looking at a Taylor guitar.

I dunno...purely speculation on my uneducated part.

I do know that, with 35-years in the automobile business, I've seen a LOT of things that were brought on by engineering hotshots to product lines that were utter failures...but because cost to remove the tech across the entire line would be so prohibitively expensive, the "idea" was left in place...even though the buying public, almost to a huge majority...hated it.

Anyone familiar with the "Auto-Stop Technology" on recent cars & trucks? My case in point.

"..........Exactly" The essence of my reply to this post... Thanks!

[russchapman]

According to their guitar browser:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/browse

Taylor offers 122 different builds. Apply the 'bracing type' filter and you'll find:

70 V-braced models
53 X-braced/other

It's not like they went 100% V-braced.

Also, it seems this topic has been covered ad nauseam, with nothing but speculation and negative vibes. If we're expected to treat each other with respect here on the AGF, shouldn't we also extend that same courtesy to other folks in the business? Or is that too much to ask? This is the internet after all.

Would you treat Andy this way in person? Or if he were here as a guest? I would hope not.

.

[scotchnspeed]

Originally Posted by russchapman

According to their guitar browser:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/browse

Also, it seems this topic has been covered ad nauseam, with nothing but speculation and negative vibes. If we're expected to treat each other with respect here on the AGF, shouldn't we also extend that same courtesy to other folks in the business? Or is that too much to ask? This is the internet after all.

Would you treat Andy this way in person? Or if he were here as a guest? I would hope not.

.

Respectfully, an opposing opinion that questions accepted dogma is neither negative nor disrespectful unless it attacks ad hominem. Quite the contrary, it can be a little passive aggressive to misconstrue free opinions as disrespectful to protect the status quo.

For myself, I would gladly say all that I have said in a friendly conversation with anyone at Taylor over beers that I purchased. Heck, I bet the outcome would be my buying one of their guitars! But my statements and opinions remain unapologetic.

[scotchnspeed]

Originally Posted by russchapman

According to their guitar browser:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/browse

Taylor offers 122 different builds. Apply the 'bracing type' filter and you'll find:

70 V-braced models
53 X-braced/other

It's not like they went 100% V-braced.

.

Well, thats potentially (and unintentionally) misleading. Of the "real" 300 series and up guitars, all are V except 12 strings and GT.

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by scotchnspeed

Ah yes, CV! Sorry about that, but does not appear to change the bracing count?

I wasn't checking your math, just saying despite the different names Taylor have applied to their top bracing, prior to the V, the reality is they were all X braced. To me it appears more marketing hype than innovation, the relief route or slanted back braces not withstanding (which someone else could better say if those changes made a difference.) And now that I think about it, the slanted back braces were only on the 800/900 GA's and a few other GA limiteds.

I've never been a fan of Taylor's fancy names for bracing patterns and much prefer the Martin style nomenclature.

[scotchnspeed]

Originally Posted by FOG01

I wasn't checking your math, just saying despite the different names Taylor have applied to their top bracing, prior to the V, the reality is they were all X braced. To me it appears more marketing hype than innovation...

Oh I hear you and did not take it that way! I honestly forgot until it dawned on me with your post. And certainly agree that these permutations where minor variations on a theme. As I said before, different should not be conflated with innovative.