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  #46  
Old 09-20-2021, 02:36 PM
Br1ck Br1ck is offline
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Don't ever underestimate the bottom line profit a small per unit savings has on a product selling hundreds of thousands of units per year.
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  #47  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:11 PM
619TF 619TF is offline
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Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
Don't ever underestimate the bottom line profit a small per unit savings has on a product selling hundreds of thousands of units per year.
Don't overestimate the way any "additional profit" gained that way may or may not have influenced any one manufacturer. Especially one that prides itself on the quality of their product line like Taylor Guitars does.
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  #48  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:56 PM
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Sorry but IMO... V brace discussions have become way way way cliche'

Taylor V bracing discussions by the numbers

#1 Pull the subject out of the , been hashed over multiple times already, drawer
#2 Spray liberally with speculation until soaking wet
#3 Stretch in many directions of points of view

Regurgitate ---Rinse --- Repeat--- bla bla bla,, ----- Ok Rant over carry on.
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  #49  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:56 PM
PeteyPower16 PeteyPower16 is offline
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Default V Class Bracing: why did Taylor make the change?

Virtually no one is asking about C bracing on the GTs—folks just accept it. No one even thinks about the bracing on a GS mini (although that guitar is designed for a different target customer entirely).

Although bracing is a key part of guitar construction, maybe the lesson is that some details will fly under the radar if they are not amplified as a change? The NT neck is at least as innovative and transformative as a bracing change, and could be just as controversial to purists who would be concerned about energy transfer from the neck to the top. Was this also a big deal in its day, with controversial opinions? I suppose the NT neck was designed for utility purposes rather than tonal, which is a key distinction.

By broadcasting the V bracing as new, innovative, and different, it catalyzed many opinions. If “all publicity is good publicity,” this could be a good business marketing strategy even if the reviews are mixed; however I could equally imagine that some changes can be left out of the spotlight and perhaps be more easily accepted as minor alterations rather than transformative splashes.
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  #50  
Old 09-21-2021, 12:33 AM
Taylor Ham Taylor Ham is offline
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Default V Class Bracing: why did Taylor make the change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
I don't see where changing the bracing makes any sense on any level unless Taylor's market share was dropping. If you have a thriving business selling A why would you quit and sell B? Obviously it isn't such a great idea that the world wants V bracing. Not even close. So the OP's question is a good one and I don't see where anyone has come close to a real answer here. I can't imagine selling a board on reinventing a company on pure high road explanations.


Maybe because it's not only about business, it's also because the designers at Taylor care enough about their instruments to take a chance.

It's no secret X bracing is a compromise, one which steel string guitar players have learned to, even been forced to accept.

The tonal aspects which bug Andy Powers might not bug everyone. Some might find them to be more of a feature than a flaw. He implemented his vision for the design.

It's impossible to please everyone, but some musicians actually like V braced guitars. And they are not a small minority, nor are they simply inexperienced enough to be oblivious to the difference. Many of my friends who play other instruments (and don't know a thing about bracing) prefer the sound of the new Taylors, and in fact found similarly priced Martins "underwhelming". I think that speaks to how much of a corner we guitarists can paint ourselves into, for the sake of tradition and familiarity.

Instruments that load the top in the same manner like the Oud, Lute, classical guitar all slowly destroy themselves over time, some faster than others. X braced steel strings are far from immune. To me it seems like a good idea to change a design that has to be built on the verge of blowing up in order to perform. If the GP's are any indication, the V brace design can be voiced in a more traditional manner while taking a few steps back from self destruction.

Last edited by Taylor Ham; 09-21-2021 at 01:25 AM.
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  #51  
Old 09-21-2021, 04:47 AM
wisedennis wisedennis is offline
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Why did APPLE remove HOME button since iPhone X?
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  #52  
Old 09-21-2021, 07:17 AM
PeteyPower16 PeteyPower16 is offline
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Default V Class Bracing: why did Taylor make the change?

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Originally Posted by wisedennis View Post
Why did APPLE remove HOME button since iPhone X?


I was thinking about this as well. Once a company achieves significant market share/market leadership, they are in a position to become a thermostat rather than a thermometer when it comes to product evolution. This philosophy implies that the supplier presumes to know what the customer wants/needs even more than the customer knows himself/herself.

There is no better example of this than big tech. This is usually seen with companies who have so strongly established their reputation and who have limited market competition to the point that they can begin to call the shots without much concern for the initial reactions of end users. Rather than letting customers drive product development decisions, customers are compelled to accept tech changes that the tech supplier makes on their behalf. In the case of Apple, they pushed us to accept buttonless devices (vs. keypad phones like the Blackberry), discontinued the home button, moved to Face ID, and also discontinued the 3.5mm audio jack. These were not rolled out as progressive consumer options but rather as lineup overhauls with no opportunity to select the older tech. This was met with some negative publicity, but in the hindsight these innovations were good ideas that propelled the industry forward.

Guitars are not evolving technology in the same way/at the same speed that electronics are, but perhaps some of the same philosophies led to the introduction of V class bracing and the discontinuation of the traditional X. Rather than letting customers drive the innovation, Taylor is effectively saying to its customers, “trust us, this is better, even if you don’t realize it yet.” Only a well-established company with an excellent overall product can take this type of risk.

In the years following Apple’s top-down new tech overhaul, they began to listen to customer requests for the home button and fingerprint ID. Perhaps some more conservative customers had gone to competitors, so they expanded their products to accommodate that niche? They now offer a new option (SE) to serve those customers, who are now a minority. In a few years, I wonder if Taylor will eventually do the same?
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Taylor GS Mini-e Koa Plus 2020
Taylor 414ce 2020
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Blue Sunburst - 2005

Previous Guitars:
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Last edited by PeteyPower16; 09-21-2021 at 07:29 AM.
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  #53  
Old 09-21-2021, 07:25 AM
Dotneck Dotneck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteyPower16 View Post
This is usually seen with a well-established company with an excellent overall product can take this type of risk.?
I guess I’m kind of a Luddite….I haven’t bought an IPhone or Taylor guitar yet.
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  #54  
Old 09-21-2021, 07:26 AM
redir redir is offline
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I finally got to play one as builders edition one came into my shop for a set up. I don't know if it's my confirmation bias or if it's true but it sounded basically as I suspected. If you look at the brace pattern on this guitar take away the V braces and what do you have? More or less a hybrid ladder braced guitar. So imho these new V-braced guitars have ladder braced guitar tonal properties. That's probably what gives it the punchyness and sustain and shimmering highs. The open D chord sounds glorious. It's a fine sounding guitar, I like it. I dare say I like it better than many of the other X-Braced Taylors I have played over the years.

EDIT: BTW not everyone who plays guitars are guitar dorks like us. The the guy that brought in the V-Braced Taylor for a set up had no idea that his guitar was V-Braced, or what an X-Brace is and so on. He's just a performing musician who uses the instrument as a tool. So for a lot of people there really is no controversy here. If they like the guitar they buy it.

Last edited by redir; 09-21-2021 at 11:25 AM.
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  #55  
Old 09-21-2021, 07:32 AM
mcduffnw mcduffnw is offline
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Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
Don't overestimate the way any "additional profit" gained that way may or may not have influenced any one manufacturer. Especially one that prides itself on the quality of their product line like Taylor Guitars does.


Don't underestimate the way any "additional profit" gained...per unit, on "per unit" volume of well over 50,000 units per year...may or may not have influenced any one manufacturer...*cough cough*...especially when it in NO way diminishes the actual physical quality of the product line and thus their pride in said product line.

You remember that there is a fellow named Kurt Listug who is/was? in charge of the financial nuts and bolts side of building the business, and who's opinions were every bit as important...though hidden behind the corporate curtain...in the development, both past and ongoing, of Taylor Guitars as Bob Taylor's, and Andy Powers were and are.

In high volume manufacturing...money talks very loudly.


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  #56  
Old 09-21-2021, 08:55 AM
619TF 619TF is offline
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Originally Posted by mcduffnw View Post
In high volume manufacturing...money talks very loudly.
Loudly? Yes, absolutely. Loudly enough to make a change in manufacture and tone and playability? Not likely. Taylor is famous for tone and playability and any changes to the formula (and their reputation) is much more likely to be based upon (perceived) improvements to those factors than to risk it all just to make what is the equivalent of the profit on sales of a few more guitars per year. Agree to disagree.
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  #57  
Old 09-21-2021, 09:34 AM
SleepyAudi SleepyAudi is offline
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I do think it makes a subtle difference and I believe that Andy truly believes it’s better.

But In my opinion is largely a marketing move. I died laughing when I saw his concept notebook for V bracing. It’s a wave and an ocean at the same time or some hippy nonsense. The picture is so pretentious you have to find it.

The official rational is this:
1. Les Paul is stiff via thick maple body and mahogany neck all being glued as one. And this stiffness is what gives it very long sustain. Imo it’s got to do with cranked Marshall’s compressing.
2. A banjo is loud because the top is large and vibrates like a speaker. This is do believe as I had a (very bad) schecter with very bad bracing if anything at all and it was very very loud for its size.

V bracing rebalances the tops stiffness vs flexibility to make a big patch inside the V of flexing and this a ‘treble’ boost volume as opposed to a larger bassier x bracing and at the same time thr longer V arms of the bracing vs X bracing make a big stiff area of the top increasing sustain.

Now is this better or worse? I’d say neither. I’d argue to simply gives Taylor more identity and perhaps even emphasizes that Taylor signature brite tone and maybe even gives a slight sustain advantage?

The end result is simply Taylor can take one more step away from Martin and Gibson and being late to the party and more definitively say it’s doing things it’s own way and not just a mass produced copy of the other 2.

Overall love Taylor, happy/indifferent towards my V braved guitars bracing.
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  #58  
Old 09-21-2021, 11:00 AM
scotchnspeed scotchnspeed is offline
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Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
Taylor is famous for tone and playability and any changes to the formula (and their reputation) is much more likely to be based upon (perceived) improvements to those factors...
Tone and playability is debatable, but...

Point of fact, Taylor has changed its "formula" (if we define that as bracing patterns/construction designs) more than ANY manufacturer in the past 30 years. It simply is not a company that is staked on a "formula" by any stretch. This is exactly why there are camps that prefer the Golden Age (94-98), the mid 2000's, the Advanced bracing or whatever, and the latest V. They are ALL different bracing designs (which all sound brittle, but different nonetheless).

Take the basic 810 as an example, which in the past 25 years has seen:

X bracing
WMB bracing
Performance
Advanced Performance
AP Relief Route
Redesigned 800 series
V bracing

(I know I probably dont have the names exactly right, but the point holds).

That's an average of one pattern every 3.5 years or so. I think it is reasonable to suggest there is not only no formula, but also an inability to stick with something and create an actual venerable sound that stands a chance to become classic.
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  #59  
Old 09-21-2021, 11:15 AM
LakewoodM32Fan LakewoodM32Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
Tone and playability is debatable, but...

Point of fact, Taylor has changed its "formula" (if we define that as bracing patterns/construction designs) more than ANY manufacturer in the past 30 years. It simply is not a company that is staked on a "formula" by any stretch. This is exactly why there are camps that prefer the Golden Age (94-98), the mid 2000's, the Advanced bracing or whatever, and the latest V. They are ALL different bracing designs (which all sound brittle, but different nonetheless).

Take the basic 810 as an example, which in the past 25 years has seen:

X bracing
WMB bracing
Performance
Advanced Performance
AP Relief Route
Redesigned 800 series
V bracing

(I know I probably dont have the names exactly right, but the point holds).

That's an average of one pattern every 3.5 years or so. I think it is reasonable to suggest there is not only no formula, but also an inability to stick with something and create an actual venerable sound that stands a chance to become classic.
I get the point that you're making, though I'm not sure Taylor has any interest in creating a "venerable sound that stands a chance to become a classic."

The more interesting question then, in light of this history you've laid out, is why people had an allergic reaction to V-bracing when it's clearly in the company's DNA to do these types of changes.

The answer imho is the ill-advised marketing strategy I outlined earlier. At no point in any of their earlier iterations of bracing did they trash talk the previous, well-established precedent. They did this time, and I think they learned a lesson from it.
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  #60  
Old 09-21-2021, 11:46 AM
scotchnspeed scotchnspeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan View Post
I get the point that you're making, though I'm not sure Taylor has any interest in creating a "venerable sound that stands a chance to become a classic."

The more interesting question then, in light of this history you've laid out, is why people had an allergic reaction to V-bracing when it's clearly in the company's DNA to do these types of changes.

The answer imho is the ill-advised marketing strategy I outlined earlier. At no point in any of their earlier iterations of bracing did they trash talk the previous, well-established precedent. They did this time, and I think they learned a lesson from it.
Very true on the first point, though I would suggest it is human nature to do so in order for brands to truly last.

I think the "allergic reaction" is because of the misleading (to put it very nicely) way Taylor pitched it, along with the unavoidable conclusion that one must adopt their latest/greatest, even if you were sold the last latest/greatest just months prior. It is not offered as an alternative, but a comprehensive "improvement" to the exclusion of previous designs. I have nothing against Taylor guitars, having owned many and always on the hunt for Golden Age models, but I hate being treated like a dunce.
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