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Old 02-24-2021, 12:26 PM
Jim Comeaux Jim Comeaux is offline
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Default Need some microphone help PLEASE

I am confused about microphones. In particular the Shute SM57 dynamic. I read the listings on the Musicians Friend site and I get different specs for the same mic depending on the “bundle” is is offered with. The frequency response listed for just the mic is 20 Hz to 20 KHz, but when bundled with a cable and stand it is 50Hz to 18KHz. How does a cable and stand limit the frequency response of a mic? I am seriously questioning the “specs” that the vendors are listing.
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Old 02-24-2021, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Comeaux View Post
I am confused about microphones. In particular the Shute SM57 dynamic. I read the listings on the Musicians Friend site and I get different specs for the same mic depending on the “bundle” is is offered with. The frequency response listed for just the mic is 20 Hz to 20 KHz, but when bundled with a cable and stand it is 50Hz to 18KHz. How does a cable and stand limit the frequency response of a mic? I am seriously questioning the “specs” that the vendors are listing.
The 50-18k is closer. Both are overly optimistic IMO
The frequency chart for the Shure SM 57 below shows that while 20-20k might be theoretically possible, it will have rolled off in db's as to not be practically usable at those frequencies. Probably much more realistic to say 100 to 16k at which point it will be 5 db down .


The more important question is,,,,, what are you intending to use it for ? The may be better choices in close to same price point.
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:10 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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If you're shopping for Levi's, the supposedly-same model can be different at different stores. And even from the same store, depending on where they were made. I learned this the hard way.

But new non-counterfeit Shure mics are all the same, no matter where you get them from. Don't worry about it. Non-issue.
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:26 PM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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I see a lot of cut and paste spec errors due I presume to the overwhelming options that we are all bombarded with where we shop.

In our world the frequency response that we need/use is way more narrow than 20-20k. We don’t generate those frequencies and most of us can’t hear them.

I find that the specs on mics don’t mean much as long as your using an industry standard intended for our applications. The eq curve/coloration and ability to be equalized to taste for our specific instruments and voices is way more important. I gave up on condensers for my voice for instance and my current preference is the 421 dynamic despite the conventional wisdom.


George
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Old 02-24-2021, 02:32 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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I never trust specs from stores. All it takes is a low-paid employee to enter the wrong specs. I go to the manufacturer.

Shure says this microphone has a 40-15K response.

As Brent says, it's a non-issue. SM57/58s are super consistent.

I've always thought of them as a solid live microphone (if you like the sound) and an OK at best recording tool. They absolutely don't work for me. YMMV.
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Old 02-24-2021, 04:08 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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The 57 is a good mic. It will work adequately in most situations. Will it be the best mic for any given task? Rarely, but it won't be the worst either, and that's pretty good for a $100 microphone.
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Old 02-24-2021, 06:27 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeG View Post
I see a lot of cut and paste spec errors due I presume to the overwhelming options that we are all bombarded with where we shop.

In our world the frequency response that we need/use is way more narrow than 20-20k. We don’t generate those frequencies and most of us can’t hear them.

I find that the specs on mics don’t mean much as long as your using an industry standard intended for our applications. The eq curve/coloration and ability to be equalized to taste for our specific instruments and voices is way more important. I gave up on condensers for my voice for instance and my current preference is the 421 dynamic despite the conventional wisdom.


George
Hi George,

I used a Sennheiser MD-421 as my only microphone for years back in the late 1980s to make a bunch of albums when my wife and I were in the music business. It's an excellent dynamic mic and works quite well for voice.

I have since invested in a fair number of condenser mics, both large and small diaphragm, and I like them a little better for detail and transient response particularly for recording guitar, but when I listen to my old albums, that 421 still sounds great.

- Glenn
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Last edited by Glennwillow; 02-25-2021 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:27 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default DON'T DO IT!!!!

Aloha Jim,

Before you enter into a discussion of ANY microphone, please consider this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PABO6WrPjFQ

Don't do it, because it's like getting a free ticket to H%ll!

You'll get hooked on mic's & AGF fast & then quickly move past the lowly SM-57 up through the ranks of entry-level mic's. Then as your ear becomes more educated, you'll "need" something better than a Rode anything, like a KM-184 or M-300.

Then, maybe you'll be dreaming of a matched pair of CMC641's or M-295's & pairing it with a $3-5K preamp in your new studio, wishing you could get those Barefoot Sound monitors at $12K.

You'll become a regular at gearslutz "high end" & other gear/audio sites. You may even spend lotsa time auditioning mic's at home - before you buy. It'll become a takeover lifestyle. Goodbye money, goodbye time, goodbye wife or girlfriend. Goodbye soul & sanity. It's Mic Madness!

The point is: DON'T DO IT, Jim! Mic's are a terrible, terrible addiction. The beginner's instrument mic SM57 is only the gateway "drug" to full-blown Microphone H%ll!

Worst of all, you'll become an unwitting expert in the subtlties of upper & lower mid's, how to identify bogus specs, & the decibel level's of your mic's problem frequencies. Oh, it never ends! It never ends!

Signed,

A Forty Year Former Mic Addict who once spent $17K on a U47 that once belonged to Frank Sinatra. Sheesh!

Last edited by alohachris; 02-24-2021 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 02-24-2021, 08:56 PM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Jim,

Before you enter into a discussion of ANY microphone, please consider this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PABO6WrPjFQ

Don't do it, because it's like getting a free ticket to H%ll!

You'll get hooked on mic's & AGF fast & then quickly move past the lowly SM-57 up through the ranks of entry-level mic's. Then as your ear becomes more educated, you'll "need" something better than a Rode anything, like a KM-184 or M-300.

Then, maybe you'll be dreaming of a matched pair of CMC641's or M-295's & pairing it with a $3-5K preamp in your new studio, wishing you could get those Barefoot Sound monitors at $12K.

You'll become a regular at gearslutz "high end" & other gear/audio sites. You may even spend lotsa time auditioning mic's at home - before you buy. It'll become a takeover lifestyle. Goodbye money, goodbye time, goodbye wife or girlfriend. Goodbye soul & sanity. It's Mic Madness!

The point is: DON'T DO IT, Jim! Mic's are a terrible, terrible addiction. The beginner's instrument mic SM57 is only the gateway "drug" to full-blown Microphone H%ll!

Worst of all, you'll become an unwitting expert in the subtlties of upper & lower mid's, how to identify bogus specs, & the decibel level's of your mic's problem frequencies. Oh, it never ends! It never ends!

Signed,

A Forty Year Former Mic Addict who once spent $17K on a U47 that once belonged to Frank Sinatra. Sheesh!
Whoa, this story is going to replace the netflix documentary on crystal meth.

Put down the RM1B and back away from the mic! LOL.


George
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:09 PM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
Hi George,

I used a Sennheiser MD-421 as my only microphone for years back in the late 1980s to make a bunch of albums when my wife and I were in the music business. It's an excellent dynamic mic.

I have since invested in a fair number of condenser mics, both large and small diaphragm, and I like them a little better for detail and transient response, but when I listen to my old albums, that 421 still sounds great.

- Glenn
Glenn

If you have used it how do you find the 421 vs the Shure SM7B. That's another dynamic mic that I am looking at.

BTW, I am also a retired engineer.


George

Last edited by GeorgeG; 02-24-2021 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 02-25-2021, 12:47 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Glenn

If you have used it how do you find the 421 vs the Shure SM7B. That's another dynamic mic that I am looking at.

BTW, I am also a retired engineer.


George
Hi George,

That's cool that you are a retired engineer!

I have a Shure SM57. I have never used an SM57B, but a lot of radio guys love this mic. Chris on "Northern Exposure" used this mic, I believe. Often this mic is referred to as a "dialog" mic, which I think is a nod to the radio use. The SM57B is a $400 dynamic mic.

I have used the Sennheiser MD421 for my own voice at about the same $400 price point. I don't know how the 421 and the SM57B would compare. The Sennheiser MD421 is the Johnny Carson mic used on his show for years.

In my mind, one good large diaphragm condenser mic might also be something to consider, something like the Audio Technica AT4033 at about $400. This is a cardioid large diaphragm mic that would be excellent for both voice and guitar. It needs 48V phantom power. My son uses the AT4033 all the time and gets excellent results with it. It uses the same diaphragm that my AT4050 mics use except there are two, back-to-back elements on the AT4050 for omni and figure 8 mic patterns. For vocal recording, however, I always use my AT4050 in cardioid pattern, so I am only using one diaphragm just like the AT4033.

I did a series of three CD albums using my AT4050 mics in cardioid pattern for recording a Steinway Grand and the sound came out wonderful. So the AT4033 from my experience would be a good way to spend a reasonable amount of money and get one good mic that would give you professional results without breaking the bank. With multi-tracking and recording one instrument at a time, a person can get away with using only one microphone.

I hope this is helpful.

- Glenn
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:50 AM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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Hi George,

That's cool that you are a retired engineer!

I have a Shure SM57. I have never used an SM57B, but a lot of radio guys love this mic. Chris on "Northern Exposure" used this mic, I believe. Often this mic is referred to as a "dialog" mic, which I think is a nod to the radio use. The SM57B is a $400 dynamic mic.

I have used the Sennheiser MD421 for my own voice at about the same $400 price point. I don't know how the 421 and the SM57B would compare. The Sennheiser MD421 is the Johnny Carson mic used on his show for years.

In my mind, one good large diaphragm condenser mic might also be something to consider, something like the Audio Technica AT4033 at about $400. This is a cardioid large diaphragm mic that would be excellent for both voice and guitar. It needs 48V phantom power. My son uses the AT4033 all the time and gets excellent results with it. It uses the same diaphragm that my AT4050 mics use except there are two, back-to-back elements on the AT4050 for omni and figure 8 mic patterns. For vocal recording, however, I always use my AT4050 in cardioid pattern, so I am only using one diaphragm just like the AT4033.

I did a series of three CD albums using my AT4050 mics in cardioid pattern for recording a Steinway Grand and the sound came out wonderful. So the AT4033 from my experience would be a good way to spend a reasonable amount of money and get one good mic that would give you professional results without breaking the bank. With multi-tracking and recording one instrument at a time, a person can get away with using only one microphone.

I hope this is helpful.

- Glenn
Glenn

I started with an AT2035 when I bought my first gear a few years ago but I never seem to choose it when I am doing mic tests. I know that the conventional wisdom is a large diaphragm condenser but I have not preferred it at that lower price point. I don’t have the smoothest voice and many mics seem to exaggerate the worst parts. I’m sure that a mic that reveals great detail is perfect for say a female singer with a fluid beautiful tone. Besides the tone you have to manage background noise and I am recording at home on the cheap (voice, acoustic and electric guitars). I went up a notch to an SE2200 based on reviews but it’s no better than my AT2035 and the background noise challenge was even greater so it’s on eBay presently. Perhaps as you suggest, the best next move is a better AT large diaphragm. Also, I would like to try a ribbon mic at some point. Been used on everything from Hendrix guitar to Beatles vocals. What are you using to record your acoustic guitar in your you tube videos, your getting a nice tone there? Is that just a one mic setup using your AT4050?

I am a one man band so one mic at a time except for some electric guitar experiments.

Being an engineer I find it a challenge to make sure that I am playing and recording vs spending too much time on gear and technology.

Thanks,

George

Last edited by GeorgeG; 02-25-2021 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:59 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Glenn

I started with an AT2035 when I bought my first gear a few years ago but I never seem to choose it when I am doing mic tests. I know that the conventional wisdom is a large diaphragm condenser but I have not preferred it at that lower price point. I don’t have the smoothest voice and many mics seem to exaggerate the worst parts. I’m sure that a mic that reveals great detail is perfect for say a female singer with a fluid beautiful tone. Besides the tone you have to manage background noise and I am recording at home on the cheap (voice, acoustic and electric guitars). I went up a notch to an SE2200 based on reviews but it’s no better than my AT2035 and the background noise challenge was even greater so it’s on eBay presently. Perhaps as you suggest, the best next move is a better AT large diaphragm. Also, I would like to try a ribbon mic at some point. Been used on everything from Hendrix guitar to Beatles vocals. What are you using to record your acoustic guitar in your you tube videos, your getting a nice tone there? Is that just a one mic setup using your AT4050?

I am a one man band so one mic at a time except for some electric guitar experiments.

Being an engineer I find it a challenge to make sure that I am playing and recording vs spending too much time on gear and technology.

Thanks,

George
Hi George,

I have a pair of Rode NT5 small diaphragm condenser mics that I have used extensively for guitar. Cost is about $429 new. These are decent microphones but there is some criticism that the upper frequencies are too hyped. You'll note that the curve shows only about a 2db boost starting at about 5 khz going up to about 15 khz. You'll also note a drop of about 4db below 100 hz. I hear both the slight high frequency emphasis and a de-emphasis of the bass. These mics sound very clean and sparkly and because of the bass de-emphasis, I can use the cardioid mics up fairly close to the guitar without hearing much of a proximity effect.

For about $70 more the SE8 mics at $500 for the pair provide a very flat curve.

In the last year or two I have been using a pair of Warm Audio WA-85 SDC mics. They are a little warmer sounding, maybe a little less hyped in the high frequencies compared to the Rode NT5. I spent $750 for pair.

I have a mounting plate for these two SDC mics, which separates them by about 6 or 8 inches, and I aim one at about the 14th fret and one towards the top of the guitar in the bass bout region. This allows me to use only one mic stand for both mics to keep my recording area from being too cluttered with junk. I use three video cameras and two mic stands (one mic stand for the two SDC guitar mics and one larger mic stand for the vocal mic) in a relatively compact space, so not having to use three mic stands is helpful.

Regarding background noise it may be helpful to consider using a microphone reflexion filter that might help block out extraneous noise. I am recording in a separate room above my garage so I am isolated from the house. The only noise that causes me trouble is a near neighbor starting up a lawn tractor outside and sometimes overhead airplanes. I live out in the country on a dead-end road, so it's quiet here.

I do know what you mean about spending more time being a technician rather than being a musician. It's a problem when a person is the guitar player, the singer, and the recording engineer plus the guitar technician. Between manipulating programs and messing with recording setups, it's a wonder we get to make music at all. I am spending so much time on technical issues that I am losing my calluses.

- Glenn
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Last edited by Glennwillow; 02-25-2021 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 02-25-2021, 10:06 AM
Trent in WA Trent in WA is offline
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George, another mic I'd recommend is the Aston Element. When I was first getting into recording years ago, I picked up an SM7B, and it quickly became my go-to vocal mic, but I sold it when I lost interest in writing and recording for a while. (Yeah, those were dark times.) I liked it because it was pretty flattering to my occasionally raspy singing voice. When I started back up again last year, I thought a lot about getting another one, but held off because of the price. At $200, I thought the Element might be worth a try, and so far I really like it. It's a very smooth mic that still has good high-frequency response. It's also an active mic, so you don't need to run it with a preamp with a lot of gain. I've not tried it on an acoustic guitar yet, but I probably will soon.

Trent
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Old 02-25-2021, 10:32 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
Hi George,

I used a Sennheiser MD-421 as my only microphone for years back in the late 1980s to make a bunch of albums when my wife and I were in the music business. It's an excellent dynamic mic and works quite well for voice.

I have since invested in a fair number of condenser mics, both large and small diaphragm, and I like them a little better for detail and transient response particularly for recording guitar, but when I listen to my old albums, that 421 still sounds great.

- Glenn
We should make folks aware that there have been 3 versions of the 421. The original "N," very smooth and even, cream-colored. The "U" came next and has a mild, narrow midrange peak. Gray-colored. The current "MD421 II" has a pronounced midrange spike that can range from innocuous to vicious depending on the source. They're black. I'd look for one of the others first.
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