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  #196  
Old 03-17-2016, 07:26 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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What do you think a curved arm bevel top will do to the sound of the guitar?
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  #197  
Old 03-18-2016, 03:49 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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What do you think a curved arm bevel top will do to the sound of the guitar?
The vibrational modes will change a bit, the only way to be 100% certain how it`s different is build 2 identical guitars (except the bevel). Same soundboard material, same fretboard, same wood inside the neck.

You also loose a small portion of air volume, so you loose a bit of bass. This could be compensated with a slightly higher soundbox (calculated / guestimate the difference), or by using other wood inside the neck like mahogany. I have to make choices, i can`t test everything, this funding is enough for 8 units, but there are already much more wood combinations possible. Cedar or spruce soundboard, fretboard made from ebony, rosewood, padouk or maple, and then i also have maple and mahogany for inside the neck.

The goal is to find a balanced soundprofile and offer that as "the model", i hope to get there with 8 units. I think offering 30 unique wood combinations is much to complicated for consumers.

Some things i will avoid like a cedar soundboard with mahogany inside the neck, that would be warm + warm in my mind. I want warm + clear, so i would combine a cedar soundboard with maple in the neck and a spruce soundboard with mahogany inside the neck. I am also playing with the idea to put mahogany under the bass strings inside the neck and maple under the 3 high strings...
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  #198  
Old 03-18-2016, 04:19 PM
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It sounds like you're trying quite a few possibilities.

I'm wondering... is the plan still to produce one perfect prototype before getting distracted?

Over time, you've devoted some words towards the issues you've run into when attempting to make a carbon fiber mold and casting. You also talked about how you needed tools/materials/money to really get past that initial problem.

And now you have the money, tools and materials to make that perfect proof of concept.

I've known people who didn't have money for fancy tools and materials, but who invested the time and concentration, and wound up building amazing instruments. As they progressed on their later instruments, they eventually bought things which built upon the initial successes and upon their mastery of the processes.

You've noted that you are fortunate to have gotten the funding for tools and materials before building that perfect proof of concept. Now that you have those, knocking one out should be a piece of cake.

Why not finish the mold first and get a perfect casting, instead of moving on to other things when you still haven't mastered that basic and fundamental part of your instruments' construction?
  #199  
Old 03-19-2016, 06:43 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
It sounds like you're trying quite a few possibilities.

I'm wondering... is the plan still to produce one perfect prototype before getting distracted?

Over time, you've devoted some words towards the issues you've run into when attempting to make a carbon fiber mold and casting. You also talked about how you needed tools/materials/money to really get past that initial problem.

And now you have the money, tools and materials to make that perfect proof of concept.

I've known people who didn't have money for fancy tools and materials, but who invested the time and concentration, and wound up building amazing instruments. As they progressed on their later instruments, they eventually bought things which built upon the initial successes and upon their mastery of the processes.

You've noted that you are fortunate to have gotten the funding for tools and materials before building that perfect proof of concept. Now that you have those, knocking one out should be a piece of cake.

Why not finish the mold first and get a perfect casting, instead of moving on to other things when you still haven't mastered that basic and fundamental part of your instruments' construction?
The mold is the first thing in this whole process, so i don`t think i understand the question. The very first prototype i made was the proof of concept guitar and there is no casting involved in this process. You can not do perfect composites with time and concentration, a composites guitar operation is 3x more expensive to setup then a wooden guitar building operation because its additive manufacturing and not subtractive like wood. I feel like we`ve been over this subject extensively up to the point where i recieved warnings from a mod but you keep bringing it up and still seem to be under the impression that you can do composites without funds. I sacrificed 10 years for this and it still wasn`t enough to make the leap from prototype to consumer quality. Vacuumleak detector 153 Euro (no detector = 1000s of pinholes), heating blanket 850 Euro (no heat = lower quality), vacuumpump 300 Euro (no pump = lousy resin / fabric ratio), scisors 100 Euro (no scissors = you can`t cut carbon), reusable vacuumbag 232 Euro, if 100 grams of Titebond woodglue is 10 dollar, 10 grams of composite glue will be 30 dollar, but you cant use it because you dont have the 80 dollar gun, and the list goes on and on and on. The material costs per guitar are TEN times higher then a wooden guitar. You blink your eyes 3 times and you have dropped 10000 euro on composites for a small home building operation. I loaned 10000, this is barely enough for 8 guitars at home, if i want to turn this into a small company in a space with just me and no employees it will cost 100000 Euro. that is not an ammount that i would like to have, but an actual calculated ammount that i would need to do it. The only reason i can make this work now with just 10000 Euro is because i am used to live on 75% welfare for 10 years and i am good at creative solutions.

First i will start with making mold, then i will make 2 guitars as "standard" as possible to represent the basemodel. Basicly identical except one has a spruce soundboard and one has a cedar soundboard. I think that is what you mean with the perfect prototype. All other things will be done after this phase is completed succesfully. I will only start making these first 2 units when the carbon bodies come out of the mold flawlessly. I have factored in enough material for test bodies and bodys to build jigs with, like a baseboard that holds a body to glue linings in without scrathing or damagind the real body. I expect that the 4th body that comes out of the mold will have the quality level for the first of 8 guitars, only then will i start making the first guitar.

Experimental stuff like a curved armbevel is a sideline experiment that might get worked into the model starting from the 3rd guitar.
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Last edited by littlesmith; 03-19-2016 at 08:18 AM.
  #200  
Old 03-19-2016, 10:44 AM
Explorer Explorer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
I will build these guitars methodically with jigs and fixtures. I will only move on to the next step when one step is reaching the quality standard.

For example, I wont start with soundboards untill the carbon fiber bodys consistantly come out of the mold without surface defects and semi high gloss finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
It sounds like you're trying quite a few possibilities.

I'm wondering... is the plan still to produce one perfect prototype before getting distracted?

Why not finish the mold first and get a perfect casting, instead of moving on to other things when you still haven't mastered that basic and fundamental part of your instruments' construction?
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesmith View Post
The mold is the first thing in this whole process, so i don`t think i understand the question.

First i will start with making mold, then i will make 2 guitars as "standard" as possible to represent the basemodel.

Experimental stuff like a curved armbevel is a sideline experiment that might get worked into the model starting from the 3rd guitar.
Sorry if the gist of my question wasn't straightforward enough.

You had stated, and I quoted you, that you wouldn't start on the soundboard experiments until the CF bodies started coming out of the molds with no defects and with a semi high gloss finish.

And then you started talking about your soundboard experiments, but with no indication that the bodies had started coming out of the molds with no defects.

My question is, if you truly are perfecting the bodies first before doing soundboard experiments, why are you doing soundboard experiments before the body process is perfected?
  #201  
Old 03-19-2016, 11:37 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Sorry if the gist of my question wasn't straightforward enough.

You had stated, and I quoted you, that you wouldn't start on the soundboard experiments until the CF bodies started coming out of the molds with no defects and with a semi high gloss finish.

And then you started talking about your soundboard experiments, but with no indication that the bodies had started coming out of the molds with no defects.

My question is, if you truly are perfecting the bodies first before doing soundboard experiments, why are you doing soundboard experiments before the body process is perfected?
All i `m doing right now is ordering stuff and accepting packages all day, i have not started with any building at all.

Some tools / materials could be ordered in The Netherlands, some from the USA, a lot from Ebay, webstores in Europe, all with different waiting times. I can not start untill i have everything i need.

The wood for the plug is being cut to size and i am picking it up on tuesday. The soundboards can also not be started because i am waiting on a precision grinded flat beam to put sandpaper on to make perfectly flat / straight planes on the 2 soundboard halves for the glueing operation. I am also waiting on a LED strip that will go in a lightbox with white plexiglass (50 x 60 x 5 CM) to see properly if there are gaps between the 2 soundboard halves before gluing.

I am now aiming for quality so i am making as much jigs and fixtures as possible. I do not want a lucky hit on a guitar, i need repeatable results.

Once i have 100% of what i ordered to do a specific job, i will start building.
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Last edited by littlesmith; 03-21-2016 at 02:03 PM.
  #202  
Old 03-19-2016, 12:31 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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Simple light box used on another current thread to candle the gap.

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  #203  
Old 03-22-2016, 10:30 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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I need consistent quality, i can`t have a 20% less optimal result simply because it`s cloudy outside. I am aiming for the best quality i can make so a lightbox has my preference.
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  #204  
Old 03-22-2016, 11:19 AM
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Well, one could just check all the tops on a sunny day, and skip the light box. Building in batches improves efficiency. Jim Olson is one of the models of this; his output is over 1500 guitars in maybe 30 years or so (please someone correct me if that is way off) so that's four guitars a month, and he builds necks, bodies, etc in batches. IMHO that's the only way for a single person shop to get super high efficiency.
  #205  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:17 PM
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Just showing a different design philosophy. You can chase your tail trying to get every detail just perfect. Knowing where you need to put your efforts into to get the outcome you want is important. Would hate to see you build all the best production equipment to give your repeatable results only to find the cash dry up before you get your guitars out of the mold.
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  #206  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:19 PM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewpartrick View Post
Well, one could just check all the tops on a sunny day, and skip the light box. Building in batches improves efficiency. Jim Olson is one of the models of this; his output is over 1500 guitars in maybe 30 years or so (please someone correct me if that is way off) so that's four guitars a month, and he builds necks, bodies, etc in batches. IMHO that's the only way for a single person shop to get super high efficiency.
4 guitars per month is impressive. I think i will make 8 composite bodies in 1 batch as well, or more depending on howmany pass the quality norm.
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  #207  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:27 PM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
Just showing a different design philosophy. You can chase your tail trying to get every detail just perfect. Knowing where you need to put your efforts into to get the outcome you want is important. Would hate to see you build all the best production equipment to give your repeatable results only to find the cash dry up before you get your guitars out of the mold.
Yeah, the risk was small on this lightbox, the wood is budgeted in molds and the led strip was only $21.41. The window does work fine. I do have only 1 clamp thing, although i`m not sure that Titebond needs it , i like to keep the soundboard glue halves in clamps 24 hours, so i can glue 1 per day.

I do agree there is a certain beauty and logic in simplicity. I now choose function over form, and that wasn`t always the case. I don`t try to make it fancy anymore, just functional and hopefully for a long time.

I just recieved a 100 dollar USB laser engraver today, made 4 samples and now it doesnt work anymore. It still moves according to the CNC coordinates, but it doesnt burn anymore. I bought it for my headstock logo, and a laser engraver is more versatile then a heatstamp (add custom names, serial numbers. An electric heatstamp with custom logo is 270 dollar here in the size i need and it can only do 1 logo. The company will mill out your design in a block of brass that goes on a hot iron thing.



But the point i wanted to make was, althought the heatstamp is 2.5x more expensive it is low tech, so much less chance of breaking.
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Last edited by littlesmith; 03-22-2016 at 07:56 PM.
  #208  
Old 03-22-2016, 10:12 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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You maybe going a bit overboard in the jig/fixture department. I usually try to wait until I come to a point where I need a new jig/fixture before I make it. Reason being, plans, techniques, and direction may change, and you tie yourself to what may not be the optimal solution.

I used for a light box, a drop ceiling light fixture with the diffuser for a light box. Inexpensive at a home improvement store or electrical supply house.

For a straight edge, the cheapest one you can buy is off-cuts of ALCOA Mic-6 cast aluminum plate. You can find drop-offs on eBay cheap and in most any size, and they are Blanchard ground flat to at least .004"-.005" over the entire surface.

Still for jointing soundboards, I'd probably shy away from using sandpaper and go with a hand plane instead. Two or three deft strokes can get the center joint super tight. And since the wood is sheared not abraded you should end up with a stronger joint, which looks cleaner under close inspection. I do use a sanding block for some back joining, but it doesn't apply here as I use it for some figured back woods that I fear may tear out due to the figure, like bird's eye or curly maple. I don't even use an expensive plane; a cheap big-box-store plane works fine.

Looks like you're all set up to go! Good luck!
  #209  
Old 03-25-2016, 09:24 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
You maybe going a bit overboard in the jig/fixture department. I usually try to wait until I come to a point where I need a new jig/fixture before I make it. Reason being, plans, techniques, and direction may change, and you tie yourself to what may not be the optimal solution.

I used for a light box, a drop ceiling light fixture with the diffuser for a light box. Inexpensive at a home improvement store or electrical supply house.

For a straight edge, the cheapest one you can buy is off-cuts of ALCOA Mic-6 cast aluminum plate. You can find drop-offs on eBay cheap and in most any size, and they are Blanchard ground flat to at least .004"-.005" over the entire surface.

Still for jointing soundboards, I'd probably shy away from using sandpaper and go with a hand plane instead. Two or three deft strokes can get the center joint super tight. And since the wood is sheared not abraded you should end up with a stronger joint, which looks cleaner under close inspection. I do use a sanding block for some back joining, but it doesn't apply here as I use it for some figured back woods that I fear may tear out due to the figure, like bird's eye or curly maple. I don't even use an expensive plane; a cheap big-box-store plane works fine.

Looks like you're all set up to go! Good luck!
Yeah, i agree.

It is like a business plan, you plan for every scenario, but remain flexible to adapt to changes or unexpected problems.

My core templates are used within my own proprietary production system where every comonent is compatible with every other component.



This proprietary Dutch Luthier Hybrid 2.0 production system uses 5 millimeter carbon fiber allignment pins to line up all the components. Every soundboard fits with every fretboard, every fretboard fits with every wood insert in the neck, every headstock plate fits with every woooden neck instert. Every component can only connect with every other component in 1 way. All components are precision routed with master templates according to the allignment system. Every component on every guitar is of the same quality and accuracy.

This proprietary production system allows me to have a 5 times higher production capacity per person compared to wooden acoustic guitar manufacturing while maintaining extreme quality.
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  #210  
Old 03-25-2016, 09:26 AM
littlesmith littlesmith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
You maybe going a bit overboard in the jig/fixture department. I usually try to wait until I come to a point where I need a new jig/fixture before I make it. Reason being, plans, techniques, and direction may change, and you tie yourself to what may not be the optimal solution.

I used for a light box, a drop ceiling light fixture with the diffuser for a light box. Inexpensive at a home improvement store or electrical supply house.

For a straight edge, the cheapest one you can buy is off-cuts of ALCOA Mic-6 cast aluminum plate. You can find drop-offs on eBay cheap and in most any size, and they are Blanchard ground flat to at least .004"-.005" over the entire surface.

Still for jointing soundboards, I'd probably shy away from using sandpaper and go with a hand plane instead. Two or three deft strokes can get the center joint super tight. And since the wood is sheared not abraded you should end up with a stronger joint, which looks cleaner under close inspection. I do use a sanding block for some back joining, but it doesn't apply here as I use it for some figured back woods that I fear may tear out due to the figure, like bird's eye or curly maple. I don't even use an expensive plane; a cheap big-box-store plane works fine.

Looks like you're all set up to go! Good luck!
Yeah, i agree.

It is like a business plan, you plan for every scenario, but remain flexible to adapt to changes or unexpected problems.

My core templates are used within my own proprietary production system where every comonent is compatible with every other component. I made this polycarbonate master template yesterday and it is accurate to 0.01 millimeter (0,0003937 inch).



This is the day 1 album if anybody is interrested : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4285113&type=3

This proprietary Dutch Luthier Hybrid 2.0 production system uses 5 millimeter carbon fiber allignment pins to line up all the components. Every soundboard fits with every fretboard, every fretboard fits with every wood insert in the neck, every headstock plate fits with every woooden neck instert. Every component can only connect with every other component in 1 way. All components are precision routed with a ball bearing bit and master templates according to the allignment system. Every component on every guitar is of the same quality and accuracy.

This proprietary production system allows me to have a 5 times higher production capacity per person compared to wooden acoustic guitar manufacturing while maintaining extreme quality. That is 20 units pert month, but i would have to have at least 100m2 for that and a 100k investment. For now the numbers are irrelavant, its just about quality right now.
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