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#16
12-05-2023, 11:36 PM
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But here's a comment from Paul McGill on The Soundhole forum Cafe with a link to a video from Bolivia that sounds very impressive. Quote:
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You're talking to me. I hear music. And the whole world is singing along https://marshallsongs.com/ https://www.reverbnation.com/marshal...ther-tragedies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-UGW...neHaUXn5vHKQGA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGxDwt26FZc http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/marshallsongs http://www.myspace.com/marshallhjertstedt 
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#17
12-05-2023, 11:49 PM
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__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar
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#18
12-06-2023, 06:12 AM
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I am not saying they made those changes because of me but it’s good that they did in my opinion and it’s basically a totally different system now. I don’t see the advantage of this over something like an Anthem SL or whatever we see never from the HiFi format down the line.
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#19
12-06-2023, 06:30 AM
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A LDC and a pencil mic' placed about a yard in front of the guitar seems to do the trick here for John Williams in a large venue and backed by a full orchestra. In both the original video clip in this thread of this new p/u and the clip in the quote above of a nylon strung guitar in a South American band it seems to me to be the bottom end that is the most "unnatural". Am I the only one hearing this? I don't see how it is possible to wax lyrical about a "natural sound" when clearly this p/u isn't providing it? (judging by the posted clips). However, if the claim is for a "usable" sound in a high SPL setting due to exceptional feedback resistance, then that's fine. But leave the "natural sound" adjectives out of the description.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs. I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.
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#20
12-06-2023, 07:32 AM
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Go Acoustic response
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We are a 2 person business. My partner Ben Shaw is a fantastic audio electrician, Mathematician and son of a Electrical engineer. He grew up partially in Titusville Fl. when his father was a NASA consultant, its in his blood. Ben spent 3 years at Oceanway studio reverse engineering equipment, Modifying studio gear and making circuit boards for vintage equipment, during his college career working with renowned Audio electrical engineer Sal Greco. I am a guitar maker of nearly 50 years, mcgillguitars.com Together we have set out to create an acoustic guitar amplification system that provides more confidence for players in live situations, ultimate feedback control even at high vol, better clarity and control of overtones, and the most reflective sound of the instruments Go Acoustic is installed in. I know impressions are based on people's experience, impressions are going to reflect their experiences with the amplification they are familiar with, their loyalty to equipment they have grown to rely on. I can tell you that the professionals we have worked with all have experience with the market and have those experiences as well. This is one of my favorite reactions to our system from a LA musician of storied prominence. You can read about his long career with all the legends he has worked with here, https://ggpopmusic.net/. Even if the name Greg Poree is one you don't know, when you work with Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles you are kind of elite. The last issue of Fingerstyle journal features Greg. A great story to read. <<Paul I cannot THANK YOU ENOUGH for a sound that I have been chasing for 50 years. You are my hero for the technology that you and your team created. ����>> As to the recording of this video and how it was done: The guitar does not belong to the guitarist, Winfield champion Shane Atkins. It belongs to a client of mine who came to CAAS last summer in Nashville and who is a friend of another Winfield champion John Standefer. We have 4 Winfield Champions and acts using Goaa, Including John, 2 time winner Tim Thompson, Mark Sganga and Helen Avakian and her husband musical partner Dave Irwin. Shane had just been introduced to the Goaa system. The guitar is played through a Fender 100 acoustic amp, the vol was to loud to be picking up the acoustic sound of the guitar, I believe this to be a reflection of perception based on experience with other pickups that do not get as loud without feedback. Shane was completely amazed and his reaction comes with much experience with other systems. It was an honest and unsolicited response. They turned up the vol to force it to feed back. It was way louder than you would get through other systems before feedback. But without a direct comparison to another device provided in the video you would not understand how loud it is. Here is another video featuring one of my guitars played by Shane Hennessey. Shane is a fantastic guitarist from Ireland who has developed much acclaim. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lmD...usp=drive_link We have provided systems for acts of all genres. This year the list grew to include Metheny who just finished his solo tour using Go AA in 3 of his Baritone guitars, we customized the circuits for his unusual, modified, Nashville tuning. Here is a Bolivian performer. https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ss...usp=drive_link I am impressed with the natural quality at this rather high vol level. The beta testing of Goaa was done on high vol stages by Peter White, a headlining artist in the Contemporary jazz market, he plays to large audiences at high vol. often. It was critical that Go Acoustic manage feedback for my guitars because I make them for guitarist who play at the highest vol levels. https://youtu.be/1uELL3NlLBo?si=J2BZKyLqRhSNRVcO At 55 seconds you will see just how feedback resistant the system is in a loud stage setting. Much is made of the so called Natural sound in Acoustic guitar amplification. From my experience the issues go far beyond this expectation. I find that most of the better pickups people favor are good at low vol. As soon as vol increases the tonality goes into a different zone of tonality. In the last 20 or so years the quest to digitize acoustic guitar tonality, based on recorded sampling, has arisen. This is not a reflection of the guitar being played it is a reproduction of another guitar's sound. the questions for me are: How does the system respond to your touch? can you drive the melody with better dynamics? Can you hear a wider range of your technique, when you alter your attack to get that contrast against the last phrase you played? Can you dig in and play harder with out distortion. We have tested both signal to noise ratio and total distortion of most of the systems people are familiar with. The SNR is an issues driven by the ICs we must use for prolonged battery life. These components are Integrated circuits, or ICs. ICs are designed for higher voltage applications. The highest quality ICs, with the lowest SNR, require too much power to be run on a 9 volt battery. The ICs are not really well suited for low voltage applications but are what is available. We find the SNR ranges between low 60s and high 70s%. Our system is in the upper end of that range. Total distortion is an issue of circuit design and also IC distortion at lower voltage. Go Acoustic doubles the voltage to 18 volts. This is a better voltage for the ICs to sound their best, with the lowest distortion, while keeping the voltage high enough to drain more amperage left in a battery. ICs distort at 7 volts. Go Acoustic distortion levels are around Pro audio quality, which is considered -90%. Other preamps do not come close to that level of head room and we are setting our gain as close to Unity as possible. The preamps used with under saddle pickups add as much as 14 DB of gain in our analysis. The issue of price is a reflection of what you get with Go AA. What I have come to understand about the market is there is a price point for systems in production. The pickup system you buy in a new guitar has a cost of something like $25 in most cases. There are exceptions, RMC was standard for years in Godins and that is a more expensive system. The features we offer require more involved engineering and we have left no issue unaddressed because of a guitar manufacturer's price point. For what we sell the price is not extreme. So given the reality of market share and mass distribution the price points have created the status quo people expect, even if the retail pricing is far higher than the intended production price. Go AA seeks to challenge that paradigm. Pickups fall into a few categories conceptually. Passive top mounted transducers. these are conceptually what was done 50 years ago. Barcus Berry, Frap, etc. Today this is K&K or Trans audio Under saddle pickups which arrived to improve feedback issues decades ago, These are compressed transducers under the saddle largely related to the dreaded Quack sound. The compression also limits transducer mobility requiring more gain for signal strength. Saddle pickups, these are designs that incorporate transducers to achieve better output and more direct energy transfer into the transducer. these include the Baggs LRB 6 and Barbera pickups. The Barbera is a unique design using bender, Bi-morph, piezo technology with very high output. they are best used without preamps given the huge voltage which can overwhelm input circuits and alter their tone. Individual saddles. These are the latest concept used largely for Midi applications but for acoustic guitars they offer greater string separation and feed back control. They are either summed into one signal or can be used for individual string amplification. Most players are opposed to this concept for various reasons, But I used them for years and know this to be a good option. These pickups are RMC, Graphtech, Baggs Hex. Go Acoustic is not an under saddle pickup. It features a Zero-summed saddle pickup with individual string frequency compensation, individual vol control, for perfect string balance, Phasing of signals for feedback resistance, including the Microphone input. So in-short , Comparing Go AA to other systems you are familiar with is not a direct comparison. If for no other reason you are comparing an output from the bridge that sums all 6 strings, contains all the over tones and cross over frequencies which create a multitude of issues in tonality and cycling of top energy back into the pickup. If you subtract the mass of the bridge, (the mass of the bridge is a filter for high frequencies acoustically), the bridge pickups are immediately bright. Bass frequencies cycle easily especially in drop D tuning or DADGAD, so a High pass filter is added to kill bass. The result is a brighter harsher sound people find very unnatural. Back to work, Today I string up this guitar: https://photos.app.goo.gl/d6pVki6RYuHDUnkr6 Last edited by conecaster; 12-15-2023 at 05:37 AM. Reason: corrections
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#21
12-06-2023, 08:04 AM
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^^^^^Paul,
The individual string balance facility is innovative, as is the mid contour adjustment. In terms of feedback resistance, is there anything beyond these level and e/q features that you have done differently from other UST or SBT active pick-ups? Also, what do you see as the advantages of this system over a pole adjustable soundhole p/u - excepting that the mag soundhole p/u is not going to work for nylon strung guitars. Do you think that your system is more feedback resistant than a soundhole mag p/u?
__________________
I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs. I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.
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#22
12-06-2023, 08:11 AM
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Given Microphones are a problem when installed internally, we added the mic signal to our differential summing circuit. This provides phasing to prevent feedback from the mic. So while what you say is true. The benefit of the way it is designed is an advantage and mic signal is more useful, less boomy and feedback prone. We have been working lately with the Mic balance against pickup vol. Most people really like the Mic Eq deployed and want more Mic in the signal. I hope you can over come this objection because the PU signal is mostly what you hear in that Bolivian video. Our pickup sound is as close to a Mic as you will hear.
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#23
12-06-2023, 08:55 AM
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You want what? John Williams is not going to survive or have a natural sound in an act like I showed. I did not post a concert recording at low vol. , It has been done successfully. This is a purist reaction to the realities of live stage sound. It is not a practical example of guitar amplification. I spent years of my life building Classical guitars and moved away from that culture. Concert guitar sound? You will never compete in large concert settings on an acoustic guitar against pianos and violins. My Go AA clients who have competed in this environment tell me the other musicians love it , they do not have to hold back to balance guitar's lack of sound. So the problem expands and mutes the other players. OK, build a louder more amplifonic instrument that sounds like a banjo, or, amplify a fuller sound at higher vol than the overly amplifonic guitar and be heard beautifully by every ear in the room. I will take that challenge as I think we have learned a great deal about reproducing quality amplitude. Here is another example on a different instrument from Brazil. The Music may not appeal to a purist classical mind set but this is a plug and play example of a sound produced by a .008 thickness resonator cone at high vol on a live stage. I made these instruments and learned so much from the experience and the experience of the great guitarist I came to know as a result. Listen to this and then go listen to mic recordings of Chet Atkins on his resonators through his beautiful RCA ribbon mic. This guitar has no mic in it. They had no sound check and only did one song. I knew Chet, I made these Del Vecchio style guitar for him. He could never perform live on them other than with a mic. Had I had Goaa back then he could have played his beloved DV sound with his band. You are not making a valid case. Does this sound like a Del Vecchio at vol. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vQu...usp=drive_link We use the same system in all guitars. Steel String and nylon. Solid body CEs and Resonators. The character of the guitars are reflected in each case. This demonstrates the ability to reproduce a given guitars sound. The issue is not tone and natural sound independently either. I argue we should get rid of the guitar and go back to the lute, its a more natural and intimate instrument, Right? The rubber meets the road with the expression of the guitarist and not being limited by the experience of playing through an amp or sound system, changing technique or avoiding input that will go sideways. No better example of this is a slide guitar example. Again, this might not be to your taste but that misses the point. This is someone considered to be one of the greatest slide guitarist. He told me he could not play slide on amplified acoustics. Even if this is an earlier system, with 6 individual graphtech PUs, and he asked for the EQ with faders in the side, He can play with a bottle and the sound does not turn into a mess of overtones. https://youtu.be/i71taytLxks?si=FZzJ31CJberJfEeH Contact mikes are a disaster above very limited vol. I have no doubt the engineers worked over time getting John's guitar mixed properly with all the stage bleed over and the top of that paper thin Smallman cycling the other instruments back through the pickup, it looks like a complete cluster You know what.
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#24
12-06-2023, 09:50 AM
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^^^^^^ I think that if we were chatting in the same room we would be agreeing on a lot. It is just that on line typing of thoughts can be clumsy and literally, black and white - missing the shades of grey.
Most players who gig with acoustic guitars are asking the instrument to do something it was basically not built to do. Often that is around where it balances in the mix - and to some extent overall volume. Singers have the same balance problems (try singing with no p.a. over a drum kit and electric guitars). If the situation enables you to solve the balance problem, and the overall volume problem, with a stage mic' - then that is the best way to go (unless you also need electronically generated effects). It will give you "your acoustic guitar only louder". But those gigging situations where just a stage mic' will do are not where many players of the acoustic guitar are at. So, the most popular solution for gigging an acoustic guitars today is to use a pick-up. And we are still in the era of pick-up development for acoustic guitars. Just look at all the kit on the market today designed to perform that task. From what I'm reading, and from the videos you have linked to, your system looks really good for high SPL environments. And therefore it is fulfilling a need. And it is innovative, as I said above. I expect that folks will still be looking to run this p/u through IR's, e/qs and other timbre shaping devices to get the sound they want - because that's just the way that acoustic guitar amplification is going. If this pick-up can give a clean, balanced signal across the fretboard, that allows for playing dynamics to come through (not too compressed), and is highly feedback resistant - then everything else folks want can be done outboard. And you are onto a winner.
__________________
I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs. I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.
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#25
12-06-2023, 11:47 AM
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Guitar pickup videos of finger picking are kind of useless IMO. It's pretty hard to make a pickup sound bad when finger picking, due to the clarity of the single notes. How about some strumming?? Also, there is lot of acoustic sound bleed through, which is evident by the guys voice in the beginning. We don't know how much of the acoustic sound we are hearing mixed with the amp sound. Again...kind of useless.
__________________
Gear: PRS Hollowbody II Piezo, Martin HPL 000, PRS Angelus A60E, Martin 000-15M
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#26
12-06-2023, 01:04 PM
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I use an internal mic a bit differently from most people, but I can see the benefits of your integrated approach. It'd be worth a try. One question I didn't see addressed here or on your web site: Can your saddle be intonated? How can the height be adjusted adjusted? Any restrictions? Both are a bit of an issue with the Barbera, for example. I see you have two width options, what about the length? (I've had guitars were the saddle slot needed to be extended to fit the Barbera). Sorry, that was multiple questions :-) Oh, one more: How user-installable is this system?
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar
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#27
12-06-2023, 01:30 PM
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I think many of us agree that the piezoelectric sensor has a signature sound in an acoustic guitar. Given the limitations of current technology any pickup is going to sound less "natural" than a microphone. And a microphone can be a challenge in many stage settings. Many artists, even the headliners, used Ovations in the 70s. It wasn't because they sounded exactly like an acoustic with a microphone. It was because they were practical and sounded good enough. Many of us use various kinds of piezo systems with success all over the world. None of them sound like a mic. Many of them sound great. Some sound like the Ovations from the 70s. I think this system by Mr. McGill is worthy of consideration, especially for those wanting precise levels of control over their string to string balance. I suppose it's a niche professional product in the sense that such players are not that prevalent, and installation takes some skill.
I'm pleased that people remain passionate enough about the topic to manufacture new products and that they take the time to discuss them in the forum. Thanks!
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
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#28
12-06-2023, 02:38 PM
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Here’s a nice endorsement from a more “average” (still above my level) player who apparently has the income to afford nice things. I’m impressed that he plans to install the Go Acoustic system in his Kirk Sand guitar. Considering the pickup system and the construction of the guitar itself, that rig should be adaptable to most any performance situation.
https://youtu.be/uXrHFTG0QfU?si=Hqk8LhESgzcTgi-T
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#29
12-06-2023, 03:11 PM
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#30
12-06-2023, 07:08 PM
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Sound hole magnetic coil pickups appeal to many. I don't have a lot of experience with them honestly. If you watch the Bueno Funk video of Peter do you think a Soundhole Mag pickup would provide that level of feedback resistance? Would a hollow body 335 style guitar or F hole guitar be that resistant? I just do not know. All I know is when I saw that video it was beyond anything I thought was possible. That was a very loud stage. I was there that night. My guitar is not just another feed back resistant stage guitar. The top thickness is as if it was a high quality classical guitar so its very active under so much amplitude. So I can't say what the difference would be.
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