A few more miscellaneous singer-songwriter recording questions

[ataylor]

Hi folks — I had a few questions which I posted here and got some good feedback on. I had a few follow-up questions, some of which I felt were different enough in scope that I'd start a new thread rather than pile onto the old one. Here goes...

Q1
In your typical home recording scenario, with rooms that aren't likely to have much if any acoustic treatment, what type(s) of microphone setup(s) would you recommend for a singer-songwriter who has typically recorded base vocal and guitar tracks simultaneously through one microphone? One condenser microphone? Two dynamic mics? A large/medium-diaphragm condenser and a small-diaphragm pencil-style mic?

Q2
Related to the above, if you were going to recommend, say, $300–500 worth of microphones for a newbie in the above situation, what would you suggest?

Q3
Is stereo recording for acoustic guitar primarily for instrumental pieces, or can it be useful for singer-songwriter types of pieces and arrangements? If yes to the latter, is it best applied to the primary guitar track, or is it useful for secondary parts?

Q4
Departing from acoustic a little in the singer-songwriter realm, what would be best practices for placement and technique when it comes to recording vocals and electric guitar (mic on amp cabinet) simultaneously?

Q5
What advantages would there be in recording electric guitar tracks using both a microphone and an amp's USB line out or XLR cab sim, if available?

[MikeBmusic]

Not so fast!

Are you planning on computer recording or with a stand-alone recorder?

If computer, do you already have an audio interface, or is that also part of your needed budget?

What is the ultimate purpose of your recordings? What are your future plans for recording (more gear, release an album, etc)?

[ataylor]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

Not so fast!

Are you planning on computer recording or with a stand-alone recorder?

If computer, do you already have an audio interface, or is that also part of your needed budget?

What is the ultimate purpose of your recordings? What are your future plans for recording (more gear, release an album, etc)?

Ah, sorry.

I'm planning on recording on Mac. Up until now I've been doing most recording on iPad with an Apogee Mic/Jam setup and just tweaking a little bit on Mac after tracking. Basic stuff. I might look into Logic but Garageband may work fine for what I'm doing.

I just picked up a Focusrite 2i2, so that doesn't need to come out of my hypothetical budget.

I'd like to record an album this year and I thought it might be nice to move up to an interface+XLR type of setup along with that goal. Here's an example of the album I recorded several years ago (err... I guess seven... I'm getting old), all just DIY with iPad and Mic — I suppose it's safe to say I'd be going for a similar feel overall, just a little more hi-fi and with slightly more lush production and instrumentation. Doesn't need to be studio quality though and I'm still after a degree of raw, organic quality in the music that I like in early Bon Iver or Iron & Wine type of stuff.

[dnf777]

As a 52yo perennial beginner, I look forward to reading the replies you get. What a great time we live in, as far as affordable technology available to the hobbyist. Just as digital photography freed the amatuer from the costs of film and processing, digital audio has done much of the same for us. After a reasonable purchase of gear, its essentially free to experiment all you want. I just got schooled on mic usage on a recent thread about using a dynamic mike for room recording. (Now Im going to try it, just for the helluvit). Ive learned a lot by sitting down and swapping out mics to learn the differences. Also learned to turn down the gain before switching—haha.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ataylor

…Q1
In your typical home recording scenario, with rooms that aren't likely to have much if any acoustic treatment, what type(s) of microphone setup(s) would you recommend for a singer-songwriter who has typically recorded base vocal and guitar tracks simultaneously through one microphone? One condenser microphone? Two dynamic mics? A large/medium-diaphragm condenser and a small-diaphragm pencil-style mic?

Hi a-t…

I've done this one…

Single large diaphragm condenser mic, omnidirectional pattern, in the middle of the recording space with people spread around in a circle. Used headphones and short test recordings to establish a good mix. I've done these with groups both sitting and standing (or the main singer sitting, and bass player standing etc).

People in the ones I recorded sang and played together regularly, and they struck a good balance between them while warming up while I listened on phones. I moved a couple a foot or so, and gave some cues of when to bring instruments down on soft passages, and turned them loose.

Came out great…

I find my AKG 414CE and my Shure KSM-44 indispensable for these types of recordings. Multi-patterns, great sensitivity, low noise floor, and quality detail and sound.

There is a company (Warm Audio) making some headway with knock-off AKG 414 mics ($499). About half the price of a new AKG.

If you are just having fun exploring, and not willing to empty the bank account, there are tons of companies producing large diaphragm condenser mics with three patterns - Bidirectional (figure 8), Unidirectional, Omnidirectional.

As always read mic reviews, and check out YouTube comparisons in order to weigh cost versus performance.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ataylor

Q3
Is stereo recording for acoustic guitar primarily for instrumental pieces, or can it be useful for singer-songwriter types of pieces and arrangements? If yes to the latter, is it best applied to the primary guitar track, or is it useful for secondary parts?

We just had another thread on this topic. But it's largely a matter of taste. I personally like the guitar in stereo when it's a featured instrument, and if you're recording voice+1 guitar, it works great to have the guitar in stereo, and voice mono in the center.

As soon as you start adding more instruments, bass drums, keys, other guitars, etc, recording everything in stereo gets more problematic. When doing multi-instrument recordings, the usual approach is to think of creating a "sound stage" where each instrument has a spot on the stage, and you pan each accordingly. Typically, drums end up being stereo, bass mono in the center, voice also centered, other instruments also in mono, but placed around "the stage". If everything is stereo, panned hard left and right in the stereo image, you don't have any sense of space differences, everything's just coming at you wide left and right. So it kind of depends on how much of a production you have in mind. Listening carefully (maybe in headphones) to some mixes that are like what you have in mind should give you a lot of ideas.

I recently recorded an instrumental CD with guitar as the main instrument, but with recorder, violin and cello added. I recorded the guitar in stereo, filling up the space, since it was my recording :-) The other instruments were in mono, and panned to create a sense that the musicians were in different spots in the room.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by ataylor

Hi folks — I had a few questions which I posted here and got some good feedback on. I had a few follow-up questions, some of which I felt were different enough in scope that I'd start a new thread rather than pile onto the old one. Here goes...

Q1In your typical home recording scenario, with rooms that aren't likely to have much if any acoustic treatment, what type(s) of microphone setup(s) would you recommend for a singer-songwriter who has typically recorded base vocal and guitar tracks simultaneously through one microphone? One condenser microphone? Two dynamic mics? A large/medium-diaphragm condenser and a small-diaphragm pencil-style mic?

Since DYI acoustic panels which can be freestanding and movable are easy to build a "Typical home recording situation should have some type Acoustic treatment . Which will make every other gear choice much less problematic and or critical

Q2
Related to the above, if you were going to recommend, say, $300–500 worth of microphones for a newbie in the above situation, what would you suggest?

Depends on if your after 2 mic's ,,, or 3 ..... If 2 mics (for singing and playing guitar ) I would consider 1 SDC and 1 LDC

Q3
Is stereo recording for acoustic guitar primarily for instrumental pieces, or can it be useful for singer-songwriter types of pieces and arrangements? If yes to the latter, is it best applied to the primary guitar track, or is it useful for secondary parts?

As Doug mentioned Stereo for guitar with mono for vocal is perfect for the singing guitar player..... But if you must do it simultaneously that present the problem of needing 3 channels of simultaneous input

Q4
Departing from acoustic a little in the singer-songwriter realm, what would be best practices for placement and technique when it comes to recording vocals and electric guitar (mic on amp cabinet) simultaneously?

I prefer mic on cabinet otherwise Same situation as Q 3

Q5
What advantages would there be in recording electric guitar tracks using both a microphone and an amp's USB line out or XLR cab sim, if available?

No "advantage" just a different approach

The single biggest issue you are facing with your 2 channel interface is IF you are not willing to try overdubs your will be restricted to mono

[Glennwillow]

Hi Austen,

Q1
In your typical home recording scenario, with rooms that aren't likely to have much if any acoustic treatment, what type(s) of microphone setup(s) would you recommend for a singer-songwriter who has typically recorded base vocal and guitar tracks simultaneously through one microphone? One condenser microphone? Two dynamic mics? A large/medium-diaphragm condenser and a small-diaphragm pencil-style mic?

In a small bedroom with square room shape and close walls, treatment is important, but you can make room treatment for not that much money. I bought some inexpensive rubber backed rugs to hang on the wall in my studio and it worked well. There are resources to look up how to do this.

Also, close mic'ing solves a lot of room problems. In a small room, you likely still need some room treatment but close mic'ing removes a lot of room effects.

I have recorded many albums with a multi-track recorder and with a single microphone. I used a Sennheiser 421 dynamic mic back in the late 1980s which worked quite well. Today the MXR Revelation II might be an even better mic to get for this approach.

Q2
Related to the above, if you were going to recommend, say, $300–500 worth of microphones for a newbie in the above situation, what would you suggest?

See above for the mic recommendation. See also below in Q3.

Q3
Is stereo recording for acoustic guitar primarily for instrumental pieces, or can it be useful for singer-songwriter types of pieces and arrangements? If yes to the latter, is it best applied to the primary guitar track, or is it useful for secondary parts?

See my response to your no. 1 question above. A good technique can be using a single mic and recording your acoustic guitar twice, one panned full left and other panned full right. I still do this once in a while today. For example on this recording, which I just put up in Show & Tell.

I record my guitar in stereo using two small diaphragm mics, but it's not necessary, and I didn't do this years ago when I had no money. And if you are recording other instruments, such as bass, you may want to use a single mic, anyway.

If you bought a good large diaphragm condenser mic, you could also buy one small diaphragm condenser mic and then use those two for your guitar recording if you are committed to stereo recording your guitar. My recommendation would be to get the best large diaphragm mic you can afford and then use that for recording everything. A good LDC mic works very well for recording guitar. And an omni mic located close to the guitar sounds very good IMO.

One option for stereo recording is to buy the MXL Revelation Mini (a cardoid mic for your vocals) and then buy a Rode NT5 or similar for your guitar so you'd have two mics for the guitar (that is, the Rode NT5 and MXL Revelation Mini). I have a pair of Rode NT5 mics and have used them for years for guitar recording and they work very well. They are not the ultimate guitar recording mic, but the ultimate mic(s) for guitar are way outside a $500 budget, anyway. (I don't have the ultimate guitar recording mics, either. Lately I have been using a pair of Warm Audio WA-84 mics, which cost $750 for the pair. They are a little warmer sounding compared to the Rode NT5.)

Q4
Departing from acoustic a little in the singer-songwriter realm, what would be best practices for placement and technique when it comes to recording vocals and electric guitar (mic on amp cabinet) simultaneously?

I wouldn't record voice and guitar at the same time for recording a CD. I would recommend one at a time for better quality and control. When I record an electric guitar, I generally use something like Guitar Rig as a plug-in in my DAW (I use Cubase). The hassle of moving mics around and fooling with amps just uses up so much time and it can get awfully loud, which might not be good for you while using a spare bedroom. Recording right into a computer through your interface and using a plug-in like Guitar Rig is so much faster and the sounds in Guitar Rig 6 are very good. My Steinberg interface came with a group of Yamaha guitar amp models that sound very good. There are a fair number of inexpensive options out there for plug-ins to simulate guitar amps these days. That would be my recommendation.

I record my bass using Guitar Rig 6, also. I don't even have a bass amp and don't expect to ever need one. In fact, I am thinking about selling off my guitar amp, as well. I don't use it anymore.

Q5
What advantages would there be in recording electric guitar tracks using both a microphone and an amp's USB line out or XLR cab sim, if available?

See my response to your No. 4 for my recommendation. I vote for keeping things simple. I spend way too much time being a technician rather than a musician, so anything I can do to spend more time being a musician, I think, is a good thing. I really like the results of going directly into my interface and then using Guitar Rig for the simulated amp.

I hope this helps. Obviously, my prejudices affect what I am recommending. Also, this is how my son records his stuff and he is making a good secondary living from doing music over the Internet. He still uses a single microphone (he uses an Audio Technica AT4033, $400), he uses Guitar Rig in his DAW for guitar work even though he has a great amp, he uses a whole lot of samples out of the computer for his keyboard work. He keeps it simple, but he is successfully making music for big name video games for Sony, MicroSoft, Apple, etc.

- Glenn

[ataylor]

I wanted to give a belated thanks to everyone who has responded in the thread! Lots of detailed info and opinions to take into account.

In terms of price point, I had initially been leaning towards some of the Shure or Audio-Technica microphones at the lower end of the price spectrum as a way to get my feet wet. Stuff like the SM57, PGA81, or the SM7B from Shure, or the AT2020, AT2021, or — if I were to splurge a little more — the 40-series counterparts from Audio-Technica. I’ll look closely into some of the other ideas mentioned here as well.

I think my biggest hesitation with going big on the microphone budget is the fact that I just don’t have a dedicated space I can really use for treating and recording, as well as the admission that I’m really a novice when it comes to recording and mixing and all this stuff. I’ve always just made my best guess using super simple gear and processes and know little about the technical details.

Part of me wonders if I should go with dynamic mics to offset the lack of treatment, but I also don’t want to sacrifice nuance and detail since I am not a heavy-handed player, nor am I a strident vocalist. That said, one of my favorite “recent” albums was recorded with an SM57 (Bon Iver — For Emma, Forever Ago), so maybe I’m overthinking the microphone situation at the expense of just honing in on the craftsmanship of my songs and arrangements!

I don’t really have a dedicated space for monitors, so I’ll likely be using headphones for mixing as well as tracking. I have both the ATH-M50X and M-40X from Audio-Technica, and feel these should be perfectly fine for now.

I plan to test mixes using a number of speaker setups such as Sonos, AirPods, phone/laptop built-in speakers, car audio — places folks are most likely to listen to my tracks.

It sounds like my best guess around stereo vs mono guitar was about right — I’ll play a bit with stereo on tracks where I might just be using a single guitar take, but in instances where I plan to layer a number of acoustic and/or electric tracks along with vocals and perhaps some other pieces — which is likely to be more often than not — I’ll focus more on a singular mono track for that base acoustic take.

I’m not very handy when it comes to putting things together unless it’s LEGO creations, so some of the DIY acoustic treatments intimidate me. I wonder if there are one or two ready-made solutions that would give me the most bang for buck, whether it’s those foldable panels or the curved isolation screens I’ve seen? I’ll also try something along the lines of the blankets/rugs like Glenn mentioned.

Anyway. Lots of things to think about, and I’m probably overthinking it anyway!

[russchapman]

Put some headphones on.

Single Mic:


Two mics (stage mics, but not dynamics):


Two mics, then three:


Single SM57:


Two SM57's


And there's plenty more out there.

[ataylor]

Thanks for the video tutorials! I think I'd seen that bottom one but the others are super helpful too — I'll definitely be revisiting these a few times in the future.

I wish I had two or three Neumann mics and a really knowledgable guy with a cool accent to move them around for me! I guess that's why people record in studios

[MikeBmusic]

I understand the 'need' for recording guitar and vocal at one time - general rhythm, timing and feel. However it is a really limiting factor when recording. Using lower sensitivity mics can bring its own set of problems such as proximity effect. And if you are not a loud singer or player, then by the time you get the volume jacked up a bit in your DAW, you may hear the same amount of background sound (unwanted reverb, etc) as if using condensor mics.

So, record an initial guide track - play the guitar and sing, one mic.
Then with headphones on, listening to the guide track, record the guitar part with 1 or 2 mics (depending on song need). Then record the vocal part - you may find you like the vocal from the guide track there, or not, adjust your volume sliders accordingly.
When mixing, just mute the 'guide' track.

[ataylor]

Yeah, I intend to try some recording with separate takes, thanks for the tips!

[Glennwillow]

Mike has provided some good advice.

There are times when I make a guide (or scratch) track, just as Mike has suggested. This approach can be very helpful and it's used a lot.

However, I practice a lot, so once I am really well practiced, I find I don't even need the guide track. I just record the guitar track and don't sing. And then I do my vocals separately, at least this is how I would record for a CD. The only advantage of recording the guitar parts without needing to listen to a scratch track is that you don't have to mess with headphones and deal with possible bleed onto your new tracks.

If you are going to use drums, then you would get the drum track down first and then you can record the guitar to the drum track as if it were a metronome.

Regarding microphones, you mentioned the AT2020 or AT2021 as possibilities. My son has an AT4033 and a couple of AT2020 mics for Zoom stuff. And I have used both of these microphones myself. The difference in quality between the AT4033 vs the AT2020 is very noticeable. Here is an open box AT4033 for $300, $100 off.

Best of luck!

- Glenn

[ataylor]

Thanks Glenn! I do think sometimes I might lean towards your method and record the parts without a guide track so that I'm focusing more on what I'm playing and less on replicating what I'm listening to, but I'll try it a number of different ways once I get started!

I've done the guitar and vocals separate on occasion before — I'm pretty sure I did them separate on this one from four or five years ago, and I do remember liking the ability to bring the vocals up just a bit more in the mix. Not that I know what I'm doing when it comes to tracking and mixing, but I will keep learning!



Oh, and good to know about the Audio-Technica mics. I was starting to lean a bit towards the 40 series if I go that route, so your first-hand comparison is helpful — thanks!