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#1
05-04-2022, 12:31 PM
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The Answer!= S.O.S =notorious & dreaded 5th string buzz mystery:
I have heard from other noted luthiers that the notorious 5th string buzz origin sometimes is super hard to find. So much so, that in some cases the mystery is never solved even by experienced luthiers.
= Such is the case in which I am experiencing. Buzzes in Open 5th & Fretted 5th string. Particularly noticeable when plucked hard. Buzzes open or fretted at 9 fret and beyond. 6th and 4th string also some buzzing....however I think this is mostly a sympathetic vibration. The sound? A high metallic after ring. A slight delay of Zing-Ring, after plucked hard. A high pitched metallic sizzle. When Fretted at 9th fret and beyond it sounds more like fret buzz....but it is not. Sound is Seemingly coming at or near the bridge? But as we all know, sound bounces around and thus its true origin is hard to tell. Loudness activated. If I play soft fingerstyle, over the soundhole, then the buzz is not noticeable. However, the minute I pluck hard, strum hard, (which I have always done) the buzz occurs. This buzz was not there before. Started about a week ago. * Not the nut. I make my own nuts and still buzzes when capo is attached. Buzzes the same...with capo on the 5th string buzzes open or when fretted. *Done the Muted string Tap Tone all over the top and back of guitar. I have reached inside the guitar trying to feel for loose bracing and or bridge plate and can not find anything loose. (although, it is hard to reach and test everything. * Not the Bridge Pins. I have taken out each pin for each string and plucked the 5th string and still it buzzes. I have even taken out the 4th and 6th string at the same time, and still the 5th string buzzes. * Not the frets. Had the frets double checked and leveled yesterday. * Not the tuners. I replace all the tuners with a brand new set of Gotohs. * Not the Saddle. I have tried it with a brand new saddle...making sure the the top what totally level so that there were no slopes forward in which for the string to vibrate. * I have experimented with different reliefs...from .004 to .010 and still buzzes * When viewed with a lighted mirror I can see no cracks or looseness around the 5th string bridge pin and plate. Possibilities? +Sympathetic vibration from Trust rod? Although Trust rod is seeming working just fine. + Possible loose bridge plate...But does not feel loose when touched. and when I look using a mirror I can see no problems. All of the Bridge pins are seated properly Guitar is only 8 months old. HELP...S.O.S Possibilities please Last edited by AcousticDreams; 05-09-2022 at 10:29 AM. 
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#2
05-04-2022, 06:18 PM
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Looking for any suggestions...I love my guitar...just need to solve this problem.
Right now...since I have eliminated so many variables...Trust rod or Something loose. I will take all the string off again...and reach inside and really do some hunting. I did this briefly a couple a days ago with no success. The kicker is how it is magnified by the 5th string mainly. Although, the 6th and 4th also have some. from DANA BOURGEOIS https://acousticguitar.com/guitar-gu...annoying-buzz/ Is there a Technique-procedure, to determine if the Trust Rod is causing a Sympathetic vibration?
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#3
05-04-2022, 06:20 PM
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The truss rod (...not trust rod...) is still a possibility. They can occasionally vibrate in the channel even though there's tension applied to them. Sometimes you can pinpoint a rod that has a bit of play between the rod and the channel by wrapping the back of the neck with your knuckles. You will hear and/or feel the vibration, but not always.
The obvious question is have you replaced the string? A defective or loose string winding can cause this. You swapped tuners, but did you replace the string post bushings? Although you say it's not the nut, in some cases it can cause a buzz, even when capoed. This relates to how the angle is formed for the slot. Ideally you want the slot to angle slightly less than the head stock back angle. This forms a firm stopping point at both the front and rear edge of the nut, otherwise the string can buzz in the slot. Do check this by damping the string between the nut and the string post to eliminate the possibility of this. Last edited by Rudy4; 05-04-2022 at 06:33 PM.
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#4
05-04-2022, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Yes I have replaced all the strings. And Yes, I replaced all of the Gotoh's 510's..a complete unit so the posts are new as well. I tried muting the strings and rapping on the back on the neck( up and down) just now. I will try again later a couple of more times, to just to reconfirm. But no rattling sound. I make my own nuts..and are pretty careful on the angle...as well aware of how a forward angle can cause a vibration-sitar effect. I use the new music Nomad diamond files so that I get a rounded base as well. But just did another damping of the fifth string...by depressing the string behind the nut and then striking the string...and unfortunately still the same. Is there another method of damping that I should try? Again thanks for the suggestions...I am desperate at this point. I am going to give this another week or so. If I can not find the problem I will drive up to a dear friend of mine, who has been a professional luthier to the stars for 40 years. But that is an 7 hour drive for me(with a few rest stops) & $150 in gas even with an economy car. From LA to San Francisco. Would love to solve the mystery beforehand. But will make the drive if I have to, as I love this guitar.
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#5
05-04-2022, 08:40 PM
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Might be worth trying a layer of masking tape ( or better micropore tape) or two over the saddle. A thin strip of tape behind the saddle too to make sure dead part of strings is quiet.
But if same fretting position causes it, it does sound like fret height issue really. Have you tried tuning guitar down half step and see if same fret positions cause it, or will that change it? Lastly I notice that in response to a poster's suggestion to check tuner bushings you say posts are new. Did you check bushings? Hope there may be something there to help...... Nick
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#6
05-04-2022, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
I am a hard player...so I set the action high....bluegrass high. With a pro luthier we checked the frets and leveled them again as well....we came to the conclusion that frets or height were not the issue. ? However, there was some consideration to the steep angle in which all the strings it come off the saddle. Hmmm? I might experiment tomorrow and see if I can place something behind the saddle to lessen the angle and see if that does anything. It is most apparent on the 5th string. It buzzes when played open=Hard. But also buzzes notably and strong from 9 fret and above... However, I do not believe it is a fret buzz. It is a secondary buzz. However, it is so hard to tell. *Buzzes only when played hard(and I play hard). The sound seemingly coming from the bridge area. But who knows, as sound is bouncing around. If I play soft, over the sound hole the buzz is not really noticeable. As I pluck closer to the Bridge, it starts to buzz harder. So the buzz is activated by volume - tension. This problem was not here a week or so ago. Which might lead to a synopsis of something coming loose? But so, so confusing as it is mostly the 5th string. There are no bushings as they are closed tuners. Gotoh's 510 do not use bushings. I will play a little bit more tomorrow with relief. I will adjust it all over the place. Already have done some of this. But in desperation I will try it even more.
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#7
05-04-2022, 11:57 PM
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”There are no bushings as they are closed tuners. Gotoh's 510 do not use bushings.”
Not quite true. Closed-back tuners, including Gotoh 510 tuners, do have bushings. However, they are screw-type, not press-fit, and there is a washer under them. They can work loose with vibration (don’t ask how I know this!). You could try gently nipping them down using a 10mm wrench. I check the tightness of those screw-type bushings on my Lowden’s 510s at every string change. 0ACA41A7-0A5A-486C-AEC9-7C71D77994F0.jpg
__________________
John Brook ‘Lamorna’ OM (European Spruce/EIR) (2019) Lowden F-23 (Red Cedar/Claro Walnut) (2017) Martin D-18 (2012) Martin HD-28V (2010) Fender Standard Strat (2017-MIM) Last edited by JayBee1404; 05-05-2022 at 06:22 AM.
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#8
05-05-2022, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
 The few times I've chased down mystery "pizz" from an individual string it's ended up being generated at the interface area between the string and the front edge of the bridge saddle. Careful re-shaping of the saddle top cleared it up, and it wasn't anything that you could simply look at and say what was causing it. You might want to slip something like a piece of masking tape between the string and saddle point to see if that changes the sound in any way. Your saddle statement is curious... "I have tried it with a brand new saddle...making sure the the top what totally level...". I'm sure you meant to say the top was shaped correctly with a sufficiently defined break over point for the string, but that's not how it reads. A brand new saddle blank is square on top, and that's definitely not what you want! I'm not insinuating that is your case, but just wanted to clear up any misconceptions that others might have from reading this topic in the future. Last edited by Rudy4; 05-05-2022 at 07:53 AM.
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#9
05-05-2022, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
The new Gotoh 510's come with brand new screw in bushing. I did not use the old screw in bushing from the previous Gotoh's. Anyway...the bushing and screw down washer are fine. Quote:
( I make my own from blanks...However using the premade was a quicker way to test the Saddle theory. all I had to do is sand the bottom. Making my own from a blank would take longer. Anyway...we tried it both ways..and to no avail...still the 5th string buzz. But Hey, keep those suggestions coming one of them will prove out hopefully. Later today I will play with relief and saddle height. Possible the height of my saddle combined with relief is creating to steep of an angle. But why it would effect the 5th string primary? Does not make sense. A sympathetically vibration with a loose truss rod or loose bridge plate might be what is happening.
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#10
05-07-2022, 06:13 PM
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Just wondering - does it still buzz the same if you tune down a 1/2 or full step?
__________________
Brucebubs 1972 - Takamine D-70 2014 - Alvarez ABT60 Baritone 2015 - Kittis RBJ-195 Jumbo 2012 - Dan Dubowski#61 2018 - Rickenbacker 4003 Fireglo 2020 - Gibson Custom Shop Historic 1957 SJ-200 2021 - Epiphone 'IBG' Hummingbird
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#11
05-09-2022, 06:56 AM
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 Quote:
I wonder if your saddle design is opening up the 5th string windings through the string slightly catching at the lip between the flat top area and the side of the saddle?
__________________
I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs. I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.
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#12
05-09-2022, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
I have gone through the extremes...examining even the tiniest of parts. I even went in with a round diamond dremel and cleaned up the channels of the bridge pins as I noticed that the thicker strings were contacting the groove a bit too much. Which of course did not make any difference. I believe I have found the basic answer. And the answer is one of a philosophical nature mostly. I know right now that probably won't make much sense. It is an answer that is not short and sweet but takes some contemplation. Hopefully it will be of some value to some of you. One word, from a famous luthier who complimented the sound of my guitar last week, saying it was one of the most beautiful sounding guitars he had heard. The one word that has led me to discover my so called problem? he said " Your guitar is Supercharged. You have done lots of little things to this guitar to get every ounce of tone out of it?" He had further complimented me on the exactness of my nut. Please bear with me...as the answer can not be explained in one sentence. And it is a little bit embarrassing on my part. Embarrassing because I picked up my other two prised guitars...and found they were also buzzing on the 5th & 4th strings when played hard. NOW I was officially in the Acoustic Guitar Twilight Zone! How could this be? How could I have not noticed this before? So now I will take another side track, that is important to the answer. I will tell you that I was a custom knife maker for many years with an excellent reputation of the highest of quality. People would often seek my advice on what was the best steel. I would always say to them "There is no such thing as the best steel. Each steel has its purpose. If you want to chop tree limbs, you need a steel that it not rock hard. As if it is, it will be too brittle and chip and or even break. If you want to cut meat, and want to edge to last, then you want a steel and temper that is of a high Rockwell. This will produce a hard edge and stay sharp for a long time." I would often use the analogy of a Race car and a Jeep. A supercharged race car, that has taken every single part into consideration for weight and speed will help you to win the race. But that same race car will not work well off road. It will not go over dirt roads and up steep hills. The design you need for off road is completely different. And of course the same is true for the Jeep. The Jeep may make it around the track...but it will come in dead last when compared to the supercharged race car. So the long and short to the answer is "you can not have it both ways " You can of course have an all rounder. As an example a car that will get you to work, hold your many kids, and even go off roading. But it will not win a speed race. I have done lots of little things to my nuts and saddles that help to give the string the most vibration it can achieve. I am a hard player...What I did not realize in the last few months I had slightly changed my style of playing as well. I was playing hard over the sound hole. The string being further away from the bridge means there is more string vibration. I guess I had built up some muscles with my right hand...as I have been shooting a lot of traditional archery as of late. Combined with a newer harder pick, new location on the sound board picking...I was just creating a harder pluck! I will continue to experiment this week and make a slightly more conventional design nut( but I do not want to give up all of the high performance I have been getting either). I have already adapted my playing style just enough by changing my picking location and toning down the hardness in which I pick...(and when I pick softer I still go over the soundhole)...to get exceptable non buzzing results. HOW EMBARRASSING....it was mostly my technique! ha ha.. I also did not realize that my saddle height was just a tad to high. I had been experimenting with different releifs from .004 to.10 thousands. And when you change reliefs the measurements at the 12 fret also change. When the height is higher, there is more torque on the soundboard. I already keep my measurements higher to begin with. When I lowered it just a few thousands, it also made the buzz less noticeable. All the things add up, but regardless, the biggest difference was technique. I am not the first to make such a foolish mistake...but embarrassing for a long time player. And just maybe...there is some good that has come out of this Embarrassing situation. By toning down just a bit...I am getting a more balanced volume that compliments my singing better. Just yesterday I happen to watch Carl Miner in a demo of a guitar. I noticed that he mostly played at the edge of the soundhole. And when he strummed harder, his hand moved at an angle downward towards halfway between the soundhold and the bridge. This is how I have played most of my life..until just recently when I moved more towards over the sound hole. As I have found in many areas of life. It is a combination of things that are the answer. In this case, I was probably playing harder, I had changed the location of where I was plucking, the saddle height was just a bit too much, I had changed to a slightly harder pick, and a few other things.
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#13
05-09-2022, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
The fact that the buzz doesn't appear when you're playing over the sound hole makes me think it might be a relief issue. Depending on where you pluck the string can change how the string moves -- buzzes can come and go as you pluck close to the bridge and move towards the sound hole. What is the current action? Does the fingerboard have fall-away?
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#14
05-09-2022, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
And as I mentioned...I have played the full gamut experimenting with different reliefs. And I have experimented with a round over saddle and a peak point top flat systems....neither made any difference. The Answer is a combination of all things...but in the way that I make my nuts, especially, I cut away all excess to let the string vibrate as much as possible. I have done lots of experiments with this technique. There are also some highly noted guitarist that use this technique. However as I mentioned..."you can not have it both ways". With more vibration comes other effects. The Big question is there a happy medium. One that I will be satisfied with if I don't supercharge my guitar? I have already learned to maneuver around this problem by changing position and hardness of pluck. And, I was doing this before, just did not realize I was doing it as my playing technique had changed slightly. It just doesn't take much of a difference, to make a big overall difference. In everything I do, find this to be true. Everything adds up. The little things add up to a bigger whole. Eventually, one can go to far. Break the barrier so to speak. Cross over the line, and not in a good way. Last edited by AcousticDreams; 05-09-2022 at 05:43 PM. Reason: spelling
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#15
05-09-2022, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gamut https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gamete
__________________
John Brook ‘Lamorna’ OM (European Spruce/EIR) (2019) Lowden F-23 (Red Cedar/Claro Walnut) (2017) Martin D-18 (2012) Martin HD-28V (2010) Fender Standard Strat (2017-MIM)
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