Best link to explain the labeling of Chord Progressions

[Cecil6243]

The concept is simple enough for me with the large roman numerals the major chords and lower case letters for minor chords. E.g. I would be he first major chord in the progression and ii would be a second minor chord in the progression. For example if the he first chord I was an A the ii would a Bminor. But I still have loose ends I don't fully understand.

What about labeling a 7th chord or or variation of a major or minor chord? Is that even done in labeling progressions?

Why is a I-bVII an A and a G chord? If the seventh chord is flatted wouldn't it be the A chord be a Gb or F sharp chord? What am I missing?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

The concept is simple enough for me with the large roman numerals the major chords and lower case letters for minor chords. E.g. I would be he first major chord in the progression and ii would be a second minor chord in the progression. For example if the he first chord I was an A the ii would a Bminor. But I still have loose ends I don't fully understand.

What about labeling a 7th chord or or variation of a major or minor chord? Is that even done in labeling progressions?

Why is a I-bVII an A and a G chord? If the seventh chord is flatted wouldn't it be the A chord be a Gb or F sharp chord? What am I missing?

Um, it goes like this for the standard major scale.

I- Key/scale note and is a Major
II - is a Minor
III is a minor
IV and V are both majors,
VI - is a minor (relative minor)
VII is a half diminished.
VIII/I back to keychord again

I have an excel spread sheet that shows all the details for "Harmonising the scale -which should make it easier for you to understand.

If you PM me with your email address , I'd be happy to send it to out as an attachment.

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Um, it goes like this for the standard major scale.

I- Key/scale note and is a Major
II - is a Minor
III is a minor
IV and V are both majors,
VI - is a minor (relative minor)
VII is a half diminished.
VIII/I back to keychord again

I have an excel spread sheet that shows all the details for "Harmonising the scale -which should make it easier for you to understand.

If you PM me with your email address , I'd be happy to send it to out as an attachment.

I get that. I'm familiar with that sequence as in in the Key of C it would be I-Cmajor, II -Dm, III Em, IV- Fmaj, and so on, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an actual chord progression as in I:V:IV or I:ii:V: etc.

[BlueStarfish]

You ask “why is a I-bVII an A and G Chord?”

Based on this question as well as your previous question, it seems you are playing in the key of A (as your I or 1 chord is an A).

In that case — the 7th scale degree of an A Major scale is G#. So an unmodified 7th chord would be based on a G#. Using tones from the A major scale, the triad would be G#-B-D which is a diminished triad. If you add an F# on the top, you get a G# half-diminished.

However in most pop, rock, and country music, the unmodified 7th scale degree chord is a bit uncommon. It will have a jazzy sound to it — that sort of chord is much more common in jazz standards, broadway tunes, etc. Would sound right at home in a Willie Nelson song.

The version of a 7th chord that is much more common in rock, pop, country is the so-called flat seven. You’ll see it marked bVII or b7. In this version, the starting note is … a flat seven. In the key of A, that is G (a half-step down from G#). So the b7 chord in the key of A, is a G chord. This sort of chord combination is very common in country, folk, pop, etc. It should sound familiar when you play it.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

What about labeling a 7th chord or or variation of a major or minor chord? Is that even done in labeling progressions?

Yes. Normally for 7ths you just add a "7" to the numeral.

However, in pop and rock, "7" means a b7 (minor or smaller 7th), so the I and IV chords would be labelled "Imaj7" and "IVmaj7", because they have the major (larger) 7th.
In classical theory, they're just called "I7" and "IV7", because it's assumed you know the 7ths are major. I.e., the tonic 7th chord in A major (A C# E G#, Amaj7) would be called "I7" in that system. But in rock etc. "I7" would be assumed to mean A C# E G (A7).

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Why is a I-bVII an A and a G chord? If the seventh chord is flatted wouldn't it be the A chord be a Gb or F sharp chord? What am I missing?

The numerals assume the roots are diatonic major scale notes. So "VII" would mean a major chord on the 7th degree.

In A major, that would be a G# major chord, which is chromatic (has two notes not in the scale, B# and D#).

So if we want a major chord on the flat 7th degree (G) - much more common! - we call it "bVII". The G itself is chromatic, but the B and D are in key. It's known as a "borrowed" chord.

Other common borrowed chords (using key of A major as an example) are:

bIII = C major
bVI = F major
iv = D minor

All those are said to be "borrowed from the parallel minor" key (A minor). Borrowed chords are extremely common in rock music.

The other system you might see is for "secondary" chords, which use roman numerals with a slash. This happens much more in jazz than in pop or rock - so you might never see this system! The common secondary chords in A major would be these "secondary dominants":

A7 = "V/IV" (V of the IV chord, D)
B or B7 = "V/V" (V of the V chord, E)
C# or C#7 = "V/vi" (V of the vi chord, F#m)
F# or F#7 = "V/ii" (V of the ii chord, Bm)
G# or G#7 = "V/iii" (V of the iii chord, C#m)

The purpose of these is to lead to the diatonic chord in question, so if they don't do that, they probably won't get that label. E.g., A7 is common in blues, and doesn't have to lead to D, so would be called just "I7". And if B major didn't lead to E, it might just get called "II".

NB: don't confuse these with slash chord symbols like "D/F#", which means a D chord with an F# bass note. With the roman numerals, the number after the slash is the chord the first chord is designed to lead to, and the "V" is in relation to that, not to the key.

I appreciate there is some pretty fancy theory here, so if it makes no sense to you, then it really doesn't matter . The important thing is not to be confused if you see any chords like this, outside of the standard diatonic set. No rules are being broken! They're just following rules you might not have heard about.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Normally for 7ths you just add a "7" to the numeral.

Right!

Originally Posted by JonPR

However, in pop and rock, "7" means a b7 (minor or smaller 7th), so the I and IV chords would be labelled "Imaj7" and "IVmaj7", because they have the major (larger) 7th.

I'm not sure I follow. Can we go to the key of C, please. So in pop and rock, I7 is just C7, where the 7th is the B-flat note (in the key of C), and the major 7th is just the B note. So Imaj7, or Cmaj7, is just the major C chord with the B note added. The Stones occasionally used a major 7th chord.

Originally Posted by JonPR

But in rock etc. "I7" would be assumed to mean A C# E G (A7).

Right. Or in the key of C, it would be C E G B-flat.

Originally Posted by JonPR

So if we want a major chord on the flat 7th degree (G) - much more common! - we call it "bVII".

What's the "b" for? What's wrong with just VII?

Originally Posted by JonPR

The G itself is chromatic, but the B and D are in key. It's known as a "borrowed" chord.

Well, B and D are in the scale of A major, but they're not in the A major chord.

Originally Posted by JonPR

NB: don't confuse these with slash chord symbols like "D/F#", which means a D chord with an F# bass note.

Right. More applicable on keyboards though.

[Andyrondack]

The vii chord in C is B diminished.( which is the same as G7 without a G which is probably why almost nobody uses it anymore)
Slash chords are frequently played on guitar, a thumb wrap 2nd position D chord frets 200232 is D/F#

[BlueStarfish]

Re-reading this thread and the original post -- I'm going to try a different answer regarding OP's question as I am guessing none of us (including my previous post) have properly answered OP's question.

Let's again take key of A, as that's what OP references.

The question is "Why is the flat seven chord a G chord instead of a Gb or F# chord?"

This question makes sense if one starts from the observation that an A7 chord has a G at the top end, the dominant 7 (as opposed to an Amaj7 chord, which has a G#, the major 7).

So in the spirit of consistency, one might think that a "7" chord has as its root, the dominant seven (G). And then a flat-7 would be a half step down from there.

But that's not the convention. Here's why. A half step down from G is indeed an F#. But, it doesn't make any sense to refer to the F# as a "flat seven." Why? Because it's actually the 6 (in the key of A). If the music calls for a 6 chord in the key of A, that's an F# (or F# minor, if it's a 6 minor).

So in a way you can think of the notation A7 (A with a dominant seven) as a shorthand for A(b7). Players know that b7 and dominant 7 are the same thing and so, in this situation, the b has gotten dropped from the notation convention. Perhaps because, as you can see, the notation of A(b7) would create ambiguity as to whether the base chord is an A or an Ab. So it's clearer to just drop the b when writing it out.

To add to the confusion -- you will see the flat-seven chord (G chord in the key of A for example) written in NNS charts as both b7, and also just 7, depending on the writer. Wish it were simpler. Play on!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

…What about labeling a 7th chord or or variation of a major or minor chord? Is that even done in labeling progressions?

Hi Cecil…
A two minor seventh chord in key of C would be Dm7 and with the numbering system you referenced (Roman Numerals) it is written iim7 - or the more legible iim⁷.
A Csus would be Isus. An F⁷sus would be IV⁷sus. First in order is the number of the chord, then the interval.

Capital or lower case letters signify if the chord is major or minor chord. Numbers at the end signify which interval of the chord is modified.

I think I understand your last question.[/size]

Why is a I-bVII an A and a G chord? If the seventh chord is flatted wouldn't it be the A chord be a Gb or F sharp chord? What am I missing?

About what you wrote as "I-bVII"…I interpreted as One chord with a flatted 7th…
The one flat/seven chord (I♭⁷) in key of C is a Cmajor chord with the minor 7th. It's only indicates the 7th step of the C chord is flat, not the entire chord that is flatted. It holds true of the IV and V chords as well (natural major chords in key of C major).

In key of C it is simply written as C⁷ or I⁷. Or IV⁷ = F⁷. And in key of C, V⁷ = G⁷.

Some technicians/theoriticians might say C Major with a minor seventh, or C major;minor seventh…etc. Way too complex when everybody knows normally a major chord with a 7 symbol added represents a Major chord with a minor 7th on top.

If you do not understand scales, you need some instruction in them to simply your understanding of the symbols. Many players just memorize what the chord symbols mean, and learn the system without bothering with scales and intervals. Music Theory is pretty systematic, very useful and best learned on a keyboard. A semester of basic piano at a junior college in a piano lab would be very beneficial for guitarists.

Hope this helps…

[Cecil6243]

[Italuke]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

The concept is simple enough for me with the large roman numerals the major chords and lower case letters for minor chords. E.g. I would be he first major chord in the progression and ii would be a second minor chord in the progression. For example if the he first chord I was an A the ii would a Bminor. But I still have loose ends I don't fully understand.

What about labeling a 7th chord or or variation of a major or minor chord? Is that even done in labeling progressions?

Why is a I-bVII an A and a G chord? If the seventh chord is flatted wouldn't it be the A chord be a Gb or F sharp chord? What am I missing?

Labeling is another manifestation of an imperfect task/endeavour (music theory). It's not like the Founding Committee of Music Theory all sat down one day around a big oak table and said, "We must devise a system of 'chord labeling,' one that will be useful to the masses whilst also applicable to any genre of music."

For example, and this is sacrilege here on internet forums, but there are many in the theory world who believe -- for good reason -- that the convention of upper case = major, lower case = minor is passe', irrelevant, and just plain wrong. (See Schenkerian thought, and proponents like Allen Forte at Yale, also Aldwell, Schacter, et al.)

As to your question/example, please clarify what you're asking as it makes no sense, the way it's worded.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Right!

I'm not sure I follow. Can we go to the key of C, please. So in pop and rock, I7 is just C7, where the 7th is the B-flat note (in the key of C), and the major 7th is just the B note. So Imaj7, or Cmaj7, is just the major C chord with the B note added. The Stones occasionally used a major 7th chord.

Yes.
Maj7s occur all the time in jazz, pop ballads, and are common in modern R&B.
I can't think of a Stones song that uses one, but I'm sure you're right.

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Right. Or in the key of C, it would be C E G B-flat.

Correct.

Originally Posted by DCCougar

What's the "b" for? What's wrong with just VII?

Because "VII" indicates a major chord on the 7th degree of the major scale. I did say that!

In the key of C major, it would mean a B major chord. So if we want a B-flat major chord, we need to write "bVII".

Of course, it doesn't mean the root is necessarily a flat note. The "b" in this case just means "half-step lower than normal", because we use the major scale as our standard "1 2 3 4 5 6 7" reference. In A major, the bVII is G. In E major, the bVII is D.

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Well, B and D are in the scale of A major, but they're not in the A major chord.

Right. I didn't say they were, but maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough.

I didn't really need to mention the B and D, but my point was that a G chord is not really that strange in key of A major, because only the root is chromatic, and its a very common chromatic.

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Right. More applicable on keyboards though.

I don't follow. D/F# is an extremely common guitar chord.

It's more a matter of whether you're playing with a bassist - because the bassist can take the F#, while you can just play a normal D.

I.e., chord symbols express the overall sound of a chord, and as a solo player you usually need to play what they are telling you. But in a band, the chord can (in theory) be shared among the players. The bass could play F#, a keyboard player could lay a D note (not a chord), and you could play an A note (not a chord). There's your D/F# chord!

Meanwhile the "secondary dominant" symbols are really only any use when analyzing a song theoretically, trying to understand how chord sequences work. No one in a band rehearsal is going to say "play a five of two [V/ii] there"! They'd just say (if the key was C) "play an A major".

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

About what you wrote as "I-bVII"…I interpreted as One chord with a flatted 7th…

Actually the context suggested to me he meant two chords - but you might be right!

Originally Posted by ljguitar

The one flat/seven chord (I♭⁷) in key of C is a Cmajor chord with the minor 7th. It's only indicates the 7th step of the C chord is flat, not the entire chord that is flatted. It holds true of the IV and V chords as well (natural major chords in key of C major).

Yes, except - to clarify - it would never be written "I♭⁷". Just "I⁷" as you say.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Some technicians/theoriticians might say C Major with a minor seventh, or C major;minor seventh…etc. Way too complex when everybody knows normally a major chord with a 7 symbol added represents a Major chord with a minor 7th on top.

"Major minor 7th" is a somewhat clumsy (but correct!) term for the chord, which most people would call a "dominant 7th", or even just a "7th".

Originally Posted by ljguitar

If you do not understand scales, you need some instruction in them to simply your understanding of the symbols.

Yes, except chord symbols derive from the intervals they contain, not the scales they come from. (I mean, knowing scales is important, of course! but chord names and scale names alike are derived from the interval names.)

Chord symbols are a shorthand system which takes the most common intervals for granted, so they don't need to be written. Examples:

"C7" = C, major 3rd (E), perfect 5th (G), minor 7th (B♭). All the defaults! The most common permutation of 3rd and 7th.

"Cm7" = C, minor 3rd (E♭), perfect 5th (G), minor 7th (B♭). "m" refers to the 3rd, not the 7th. We assume the 7th is minor anyway.

"Cmaj7" = C, major 3rd (E), perfect 5th (G), major 7th (B). "maj" refers to the 7th, not the 3rd. We assume the 3rd is major anyway.

"Cm(maj7)" = C, minor 3rd (E♭), perfect 5th (G), major 7th (B). Both 3rd and 7th are changed from the defaults. (The 5th remains perfect.) The rarest combination, which is why it doesn't matter that the symbol is a bit clumsy.

Other shorthand rules apply to extensions, and to diminished chords.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Chord symbols are a shorthand system which takes the most common intervals for granted, so they don't need to be written. Examples:

"C7" = C, major 3rd (E), perfect 5th (G), minor 7th (B♭). All the defaults! The most common permutation of 3rd and 7th.

"Cm7" = C, minor 3rd (E♭), perfect 5th (G), minor 7th (B♭). "m" refers to the 3rd, not the 7th. We assume the 7th is minor anyway.

"Cmaj7" = C, major 3rd (E), perfect 5th (G), major 7th (B). "maj" refers to the 7th, not the 3rd. We assume the 3rd is major anyway.

Hi JonPR
Aged 74 and I slipped up on that theory point from when I was in college at 18 yrs of age. I recommend that players take a basic keyboard lessons for a semester because Chord building makes so much more sense on keys than frets.

I started on accordion (for 12 years) which is even more chord-centric than piano, and it has aided my musical expression and understanding for trumpet, recorder, guitar and singing for decades now.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes.
Maj7s occur all the time in jazz, pop ballads, and are common in modern R&B.
I can't think of a Stones song that uses one, but I'm sure you're right.
Correct.
Because "VII" indicates a major chord on the 7th degree of the major scale. I did say that!

You can't build a major chord from B in the scale of C major, it's a diminished chord.