jazz players: help - i don't speak your language

jersey · #1 08-23-2012, 02:32 AM

greetings friends and fellow pickers,

after seeing the thread about victor wooten's approach to music as a language it occured to me
that i only really know one musical language: blues.

if i hear a blues song i understand it and i can improvise to it.

but recently ive been listening to frank vignola and gypsy jazz players and even
though i know the chord changes and the key to say limehouse blues, i have nothing to say in terms of improvisation.

i look at the fretboard and feel like a lost child.

is it just a matter of listening to good jazz players and then trial and error with the fretboard to see what works?

your expertise is appreciated,

james

lone eskimo · #2 08-23-2012, 07:53 AM

I think it was the late great Joe Pass who said something akin to "if you don't live it, breathe it, play it 24/7 move on.." jazz music takes a lot of hard work and dedication to play well. You can't just learn a pentatonic scale and jam on a tune like you often can in basic blues, rock, etc... The chord changes are often more intricate and getting 'inside' those changes takes a lot of practicing thru many scales, modes, arpeggios etc.. and much listening and ear training to quickly anticipate what's coming next..

I honestly can't think of anything humans can do that involves as much quick (and intricate) thinking from the mind to the fingers as jazz improvisation. No doubt it's there in all styles- bluegrass, rock, etc.. but I think jazz chord progressions tend to be the most complex (always exceptions) overall.

Mike

BluesBelly · #3 08-23-2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lone eskimo

I think it was the late great Joe Pass who said something akin to "if you don't live it, breathe it, play it 24/7 move on.." jazz music takes a lot of hard work and dedication to play well. You can't just learn a pentatonic scale and jam on a tune like you often can in basic blues, rock, etc... The chord changes are often more intricate and getting 'inside' those changes takes a lot of practicing thru many scales, modes, arpeggios etc.. and much listening and ear training to quickly anticipate what's coming next..

I honestly can't think of anything humans can do that involves as much quick (and intricate) thinking from the mind to the fingers as jazz improvisation. No doubt it's there in all styles- bluegrass, rock, etc.. but I think jazz chord progressions tend to be the most complex (always exceptions) overall.

Mike

Well put!
Indeed Jazz and Jazz Cats are a different breed. I dabble in jazz but am by no means a jazz player. If one is interested in sounding kind of jazzy a good place to start is sliding ninth chords combined with improvisation on the minor blues scale but do not let yourself be confined by the notes of the scale. Use off scale notes to promote disonence with eventual resolution sometimes taking painfully long in coming.
Looking forward to comments from some of you 'real' Jazz Cats.

Blues

mr. beaumont · #4 08-23-2012, 08:23 AM

Jazz is a big committment, to play well...but the basics are relatively easy. But you have to really KNOW them.

The biggest thig that makes jazz sound jazzy is the extended harmony in the chords, and playing solo lines that address that harmony. This means that jazz players aren't looking for a catch all scale that fits all of the chords in a progression...they address each chord seperately.

I've done a bunch of videos for beginning jazzers. I don't claim to be a great jazz guitar player--but I can hang in most situations, and I know that I can get people off the ground who are coming from a rock or blues background...check this stuff out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZFfd-fel4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3No3dl7HIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVATlBBGRE4

Chords are your bread and butter as a jazz beginner...you have to know them inside out and where to find them all over the neck.

If you're interested in specifically gypsy jazz be sure to check out John Jorgenson's books, Michael Chang's videos, and Mike Horovitz's stuff over at djangobooks.com

For regular jazz styles, Mickey Baker's books are still great. If you can't read music, learn now. No waiting.

arie · #5 08-23-2012, 08:39 AM

nobody here has mentioned timing and phrasing -often very different from blues. also your melodies don't necessarily have to resolve and the end of each phrase but can often be concluded at the beginning of the next passage or at it's conclusion. kinda like math a little bit in where you propose a musical "problem" and then "solve" it through note selection and chordal work. whereas blues is often served up neat and digestible.

i've found that i find more inspiration from the classic jazz horn and piano players then from the guitarists. i'd suggest listening to coltrane, monk, parker, evans, and davis' work. monk and davis were in particular very good at saying so much with so little.

mlr1122 · #6 08-23-2012, 08:40 AM

James,

Acoustic guitar is my hobby. Im a professional woodwinds player- played saxophone with Buddy Rich's band in the 80's ( among others) and make my living playing mostly jazz. It's a matter of listening to a whole bunch of stuff that you like. Then, try to transcribe a solo- maybe Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass? Transcribe it yourself so you can get inside it and understand it better. Nowadays they have apps that can slow down music without changing the key! Then take some of the ideas you learn and incorporate them into your playing. Jazz is like learning a language. There are common patterns and lines passed down through time that you'll learn by listening and transcribing. If you have an iPad, get and app called iRealb. It's got the chord changes and accompaniment to thousands of songs (not only jazz, but pop, bluegrass etc.) and you can play along.
A book called "Patterns for Jazz Improvisation" by Oliver Nelson is also a really good resource.
It's not an easy road, but the pursuit will help your ear and playing.
Good Luck!

Mike

mr. beaumont · #7 08-23-2012, 08:46 AM

Listening is huge...it has to be the music in your head.

Transcribing or lifting licks even without writing down is incredibly important, but very tough for someone brand new to the music. Listen, learn some songs, play the chords, play the melodies...get a foothold.

So many people want to run before they can crawl...

zabdart · #8 08-23-2012, 09:00 AM

One of the reasons Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk and Charlie Parker developed bebop or "modern jazz" was to move jazz away from a music in which all that was needed was a good ear and a competent technique. You had to be able to read music. You had to be able to understand the harmony theory behind the chord changes. If you can read music, Bud Powell's "Scales, Chords and Progressions" is indispensable for anyone who wants to play jazz... not only because it will give you a good foundation into what's going on, but because it will give you some idea of all the practice involved. Like Joe Pass said: "If you don't live it, you'll never be able to do it."

Blueser100 · #9 08-23-2012, 09:32 AM

Noodling around the harmonic minor might get you going if improvised over some gypsy jazz chord comping.

jazzrat · #10 08-23-2012, 10:19 AM

Jeff is the guy.
+1 to what he said.
In addition I would add.....learn some tunes....
Which is to say...really learn them. Head and chords and
refer, when you can to the original vocal version for how to phrase.
Much of the vocabulary can be found in the heads (melodies) of
tunes that are standard to the jazz book.

Find a tune that grabs you...one tune, and invest a little study. It's the old thing about "How to eat an Elephant".

IMHO you don't have to flush what you already know....you just have to learn
when it works as many jazz tunes are blues.

This coming from an incredibly bad jazz player. I play well enough that people will pay to hear it but I am realistic about what level I can achieve given
the amount of time I can devote to it with family and other priorities.

It's like anything else...you can go as deep as you want but you can have fun and make a contribution at many levels that don't involve a complete sell-out.

I would refer you to a free site by some friends of mine.
A great reference on how to begin to hear what 'real' jazz players are doing.
http://www.learnjazzstandards.com/

Best o' luck

mlr1122 · #11 08-23-2012, 10:50 AM

So many people want to run before they can crawl...[/QUOTE]

The OP brings up Victor Wooten and discusses jazz and the blues as related to "languages". In no way am I suggesting he not "crawl". It's just that jazz is more complex....even crawling is more difficult.

mr. beaumont · #12 08-23-2012, 10:54 AM

That comment was not directed at you.

Landru · #13 08-23-2012, 10:55 AM

Blowing Jazz . . . .

Let's start by serving jazz. Systematic chord inversions - four-note chords, small, medium and large density - all inversions, all chord types. Get to where you can play any Jobim song with your hand in one position only on the neck.

Next, add the melody as you play the chords.

These steps are the prelude for soloing over these chords. The reference to Joe Pass's advice is well placed here - to blow jazz, one must have no other choice. Personally, I feel playing chords and melody is the top of the mountain, as the beautiful song is always king. I have an inversion chart/map - would you like it? Good fortune

jersey · #14 08-23-2012, 11:26 AM

thanks for the help everybody. i guess there's no substitute for hard work. the great thing is that learning is fun in it's own way and i'm discovering more and more great musicians.

andyi5 · #15 08-23-2012, 12:42 PM

The way players tend to become proficient in jazz is to start out by being drawn to the sound and the swing of it - this inspires the wish to explore it. If you come from a blues background for instance and you start finding some of the altered chords and lines in jazz more interesting than the plain vanilla stuff, you're already starting to hear differently and want to find out more about what's being played. The chord shapes for a lot of jazz chords are actually very easy to play and the changes just fall under your fingers... "I Got Rhythm" is an example of a set of very common jazz changes that follow each other naturally and aren't difficult to play once you get familiar - this leads in time to the ability to weave lines and arpeggios into the playing which represent the chord. Similar changes crop up in countless tunes. Interesting titbit (according to Duck Baker) - the phrase Rhythm and Blues originates from the standards that early musos were expected to be able to show up and play - if you'd mastered the "I Got Rhythm" changes and also the changes to a blues form you'd be good to go...

Many of the jazz standards were written a very long time ago and in the early days they were played in a more straight ahead way - the music of the 40's becoming increasingly developed and complex during the 50's and 60's as musicians pushed back the boundaries. But listen to Charlie Christian on "Swing to Bop" in 1941 and you'll find his drive and pacing is phenomenal, and yet musically it's quite straightforward and simple to follow. A lot of the great players that followed got started by sitting down and learning CC's solos note for note from crackly gramophone records - he himself did the same thing with horn players like Lester Young. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce9Jt...eature=related