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  #46  
Old 11-10-2019, 03:53 PM
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The 'Made In China' Guilds haven't de-valued the USA made guitars.
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  #47  
Old 11-10-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulzoom View Post
I have a thought---why don't we wait and see how good the guitars turn out to be?
OK now you are just being objective
Interestingly there is a thread over on the GS forum Titled "The New Mac Pro" that has over 111 Pages and 3301 posts on it , and it is still not out yet
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  #48  
Old 11-10-2019, 04:20 PM
hamburg325 hamburg325 is offline
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Except of course as I said and you have ignored, Breedlove from the very get go before going offshore, had notoriously low resale value. So your statement is a false cause association. But more importantly why would I try to sell it.
I owned and sold several great Steve Henderson Breedloves in the 90s, and they held their value exceptionally well. So you don't really know what you're talking about.
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Last edited by TomB'sox; 11-10-2019 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Public discussion of moderator
  #49  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:04 PM
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OK, this should not be such a contentious subject folks let's keep it civil and recognize everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:06 PM
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BTW, not sure it was a secret on the cars:

Toyota's luxury division is Lexus
Honda's is Acura
Nissan's is Infinity
Hyundai is Genesis

It has always been this way since their inceptions.
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  #51  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well arguably most people are not actually aware that Lexus is owned by Toyota .
You just made one of those generalizations you’ve criticized others for. It’s not factual at all.
Your presumption is based on nothing more than your opinion. Anyway, there’s nothing wrong with everyone having an opinion.
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  #52  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
BTW, not sure it was a secret on the cars:

Toyota's luxury division is Lexus
Honda's is Acura
Nissan's is Infinity
Hyundai is Genesis

It has always been this way since their inceptions.
The stock on those 4 brands is going to tank tomorrow. Nice work, B’Sox!
  #53  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:25 PM
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The stock on those 4 brands is going to tank tomorrow. Nice work, B’Sox!
Woops, sorry, sell, sell, sell!
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  #54  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hamburg325 View Post
I owned and sold several great Steve Henderson Breedloves in the 90s, and they held their value exceptionally well. So you don't really know what you're talking about.

Speaking of Steve Henderson and Breedlove, one of the big internal disagreements at Breedlove in the late 90's to around 2000/2001, that had a part in Steve Henderson leaving Breedlove was the beginnings of Breedlove importing the Breedlove "Atlas" line of Pac Rim made guitars. As I understood it, the development of the Atlas line was in a large part due to financial needs and challenges Breedlove was facing, and the notion in the "pro Atlas" camp at Breedlove was that the profit margins and higher volume exposure of the Breedlove name at the lower end/beginner/entry level guitar market would more than make up for any potential "loss of status/reputation" of the Breedlove name in the custom/boutique market.

Steve Henderson did not feel that way about it, and did not want to fully associate the Breedlove name with the Atlas line because he felt that it would in fact water down or degrade...if you will...the Breedlove brand and quality reputation of their various model of custom Masterclass level instruments. I am not sure if he was fully opposed to having them as a part of Breedlove's offerings, but, I know that he was very concerned that they would cause Breedlove guitars to be viewed through a different quality and value lens, from that point on, by the guitar market/buying public.

I think, sadly, he was/is ultimately correct in his belief. While the Breedlove "Pac Rim" lines have become very successful in certain ways for the company...$$$..., it did...IMO...come at the ultimate cost to their status and reputation at the custom level. When you go on Ebay and Reverb nowadays, you rarely see a high end full on custom Masterclass level Breedlove for sale...new or vintage. You just see all the Guitar Center/Sweetwater level model lines...row after row, column after column, page after page.

When you go to a smaller dealer, you rarely see a Masterclass level model, again, you mostly see the lower and mid line models.

And you rarely see a vintage Steve Henderson/Larry Breedlove/Terry Meyers instrument from the early to late 90's for sale...anywhere. No, they did not make all that many, but they made hundreds per year, and you just don't see them, as aficionado's of the brand hold them close, and snap them up quickly when they do rarely pop up for sale.

I know I wish I still had one of my late 90's Breedlove Masterclass Ed Gerhard Signature Model jumbos. They were really stellar guitars. Sigh...maybe someday...


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  #55  
Old 11-10-2019, 05:56 PM
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Well, if resell is a significant concern for you, it's probably not the best idea to buy boutique stuff. Martins will hold their value better. Also, I wouldn't purchase anything new either, just go used. So maybe split the difference - find a used Bourgeois (if you prefer that brand) and if you're buying sight unseen, do so from somewhere reputable so you can utilize the return option if necessary.
  #56  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:03 PM
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I've never understood the negativity that comes forth when discussing an opinion...especially one like this...

If one person doesn't perceive this merger as devaluing the Bourgeois name (in his perception) and will purchase one with no qualms, there's no valid argument against that...

If another person DOES perceive it as devaluation (in his perception) and will not purchase the guitar based on his beliefs, there's also no valid argument against his position...

It sounds foolish to try to debunk a personal opinion based on your differing personal opinion...

The usual disclaimers and all...
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  #57  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:21 PM
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First of all, I've sold every guitar I've ever had except for the ones in the house now. There is nothing ridiculous about imagining the possibility that at some future time a sale could happen. I never purchased a guitar with the idea that I'd eventually sell it, but I eventually did - many times.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I would be shocked if the sale of the Chinese guitars had any influence on the guitars from Maine.

Buying used is always a good idea if your looking to be prudent with your money. I always buy used if I can find what I'm looking for in that market.
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  #58  
Old 11-10-2019, 06:44 PM
hamburg325 hamburg325 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcduffnw View Post
Speaking of Steve Henderson and Breedlove, one of the big internal disagreements at Breedlove in the late 90's to around 2000/2001, that had a part in Steve Henderson leaving Breedlove was the beginnings of Breedlove importing the Breedlove "Atlas" line of Pac Rim made guitars. As I understood it, the development of the Atlas line was in a large part due to financial needs and challenges Breedlove was facing, and the notion in the "pro Atlas" camp at Breedlove was that the profit margins and higher volume exposure of the Breedlove name at the lower end/beginner/entry level guitar market would more than make up for any potential "loss of status/reputation" of the Breedlove name in the custom/boutique market.

Steve Henderson did not feel that way about it, and did not want to fully associate the Breedlove name with the Atlas line because he felt that it would in fact water down or degrade...if you will...the Breedlove brand and quality reputation of their various model of custom Masterclass level instruments. I am not sure if he was fully opposed to having them as a part of Breedlove's offerings, but, I know that he was very concerned that they would cause Breedlove guitars to be viewed through a different quality and value lens, from that point on, by the guitar market/buying public.

I think, sadly, he was/is ultimately correct in his belief. While the Breedlove "Pac Rim" lines have become very successful in certain ways for the company...$$$..., it did...IMO...come at the ultimate cost to their status and reputation at the custom level. When you go on Ebay and Reverb nowadays, you rarely see a high end full on custom Masterclass level Breedlove for sale...new or vintage. You just see all the Guitar Center/Sweetwater level model lines...row after row, column after column, page after page.

When you go to a smaller dealer, you rarely see a Masterclass level model, again, you mostly see the lower and mid line models.

And you rarely see a vintage Steve Henderson/Larry Breedlove/Terry Meyers instrument from the early to late 90's for sale...anywhere. No, they did not make all that many, but they made hundreds per year, and you just don't see them, as aficionado's of the brand hold them close, and snap them up quickly when they do rarely pop up for sale.

I know I wish I still had one of my late 90's Breedlove Masterclass Ed Gerhard Signature Model jumbos. They were really stellar guitars. Sigh...maybe someday...


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher
Well said, Duff. I was a Breedlove fan and owner from the beginning, and they were--and are--amazing and unique guitars. I wish they'd stayed artisanal rather than trying to become big. Although I owned a few of their Atlas and other Pac-Rim guitars as well (and liked them), there's no question that their aggressive expansion into lower-priced guitars hurt the image of their higher end American guitars. And, yes, hurt resale value.

I follow Breedlove in the new and used online market, and their high end models seem to be a tough sell, even though they're probably wonderful guitars. Since the Steve Henderson years, the company has been erratic and confused, and they probably now survive solely on the basis of those under-$1000 models one sees at GC and everywhere else.
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Charis SJ Cedar/EIR
Taylor Leo Kottke Signature 12-String
Guild all-mahogany small body
Fender American Strat
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  #59  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:24 PM
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I speculate that when Eastman starts making Bourgeois guitars they will be of excellent quality and they will make and sell a ton of them. (That's the only reason they would have gotten involved). I think the crew in Maine will be left alone to build premium instruments as long as they don't cost Eastman too much money. Since it is a high volume Chinese guitar company the brand value may be diminished but they'll more than make up for it in volume.

I love my Bourgeois guitars and was disappointed to hear about the alliance but I'm happy that Dana was able to secure the resources to keep the doors open.
  #60  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebubs View Post
The 'Made In China' Guilds haven't de-valued the USA made guitars.
Guild has never been a boutique maker.

And you do have to clarify, if you are talking about a Guild, whether you are talking about a USA built guitar or an import. You did not have to do that before they started importing guitars.

Guild is kind of an interesting case because its reputation has already been affected by having so many U.S. factories. You see it in the comments on here and in other places. People are suspicious of Guild bouncing around so much from place to place. There is sense that Guild never had its act together for very long, except perhaps during the Westerly years. (And I say that as a strong proponent of the New Hartford models. ) There is a sense (not justified by the facts, IMO) that some of the factories produced guitars that were not up to par with the others.

And to be clear, I like the imported Guilds. I think they represent very good value per dollar. But I don't believe that an OM-150 is as nice a guitar as my New Hartford F-30 Std.
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