Mid Side recording

[always guitar]

Here's a capture of a mid side in my loft - no EQ, automation or processing of any kind, the room sound is mainly the side mic. I will admit I did edit out one very small passage that I hit WAY too hard, I think you can probably tell I'm not trying to correct mistakes.

https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/...own-v1/s-B4KUq

I'm having fun exploring this method - here's how the mics are set up - sorry this is upside down. An Oktava cardoid MK-012 with an Apex 205 with the null pointed at the source. The side. Then you bus the side to another channel, hard pan them both and flip the phase on the bussed channel. It's a mouthful and I will be happy to explain if you're interested.

Here's what the mic setup looks like (sorry it's upside down from another session):


AG

[rick-slo]

Good sound. A little recessed cause mainly the side mike, so you might up the mid a bit.

[always guitar]

Thanks Rick - there's also rumble from the side as the room is not meant for recording, but, I am kind of into this documentary thing these days. This is what it sounded like. I could ease up the rumble with a HPF on the side but every time I do something to these recordings I don't really like it. Side faders are -1 and mid is 0 so I hear you. I already went there a little. It's a process.

AG

[Doug Young]

yeah, this sounds like almost entirely side mics to me, it has that funny head-twisting out of phase sound. How are you setting up the gain? To get things calibrated, I'd start with both mics facing toward you, then set the gain so that both mics produce the same volume (if you use the same mics for MS, you can just usually just set the gain that same on both channels, but you have 2 different mics here, so they may have different output levels). Then turn the figure 8 to MS position (sideways). The side channel will have considerably less level when you look at your meters or waveform, but it will be correct when you decode them.

[always guitar]

It's a process.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

To get things calibrated, I'd start with both mics facing toward you, then set the gain so that both mics produce the same volume (if you use the same mics for MS, you can just usually just set the gain that same on both channels, but you have 2 different mics here, so they may have different output levels). Then turn the figure 8 to MS position (sideways). The side channel will have considerably less level when you look at your meters or waveform, but it will be correct when you decode them.

The levels are well-recorded, what seems to be in question is the width. Like I told Rick, perhaps I will lessen it, but right now I dig the wool.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

It's a process.



The levels are well-recorded, what seems to be in question is the width. Like I told Rick, perhaps I will lessen it, but right now I dig the wool.

AG

Yes, maybe you just cranked the width. What I was guessing was that you had the levels of both tracks the same. That doesn't produce the theoretically correct ms. But if you like it that's all that matters.

[always guitar]

I'm trying to do this documentarian thing Doug at the moment. This is the mic technique that many location/sound effects recorders use. It makes sense to pursue it for a while, until I need to do something else, which is inevitable.
I will say this, XY never worked for me and a spaced pair has not either, that doesn't mean that incredible recordings aren't made very day this way, but MS has caught my attention. Next step is an omni in the mid. We shall see.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

I'm trying to do this documentarian thing Doug at the moment. This is the mic technique that many location/sound effects recorders use. It makes sense to pursue it for a while, until I need to do something else, which is inevitable.

AG

You may be misunderstanding my suggestions. I like ms, use it all the time. One of the features of ms, and one reason that its used for field recordings, is that you can play it back in mono, and the sound doesn't change substantially. If you have a mono switch on your playback, you might try that and see it works on your recording. The tone shouldn't change much at all, and the volume should stay the same. You may not care about mono, but it's one way to see if what you have is working the way other ms recordings work. But again, if your getting results you like, you're all set!

[always guitar]

Thanks for the advice Doug.
I'm going to do a mix with the sides at -6 (which mathematically should make sense) and I'll post a small snippet.

AG

[always guitar]

As promised a couple of different mixes, still no EQ or processing of any kind.

Mid = 0 Side = -3
https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/side-3/s-95kvo

Mid = +1 Side = -5
https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/...side-5/s-6mQF1

Not sure what I think yet, maybe some of you are.

The first link was:
Mid = 0 Side = -1

AG

[Doug Young]

Both are a big improvement to my ear. If you set the mic levels the way MS is usually set up, you wouldn't have to be thinking in terms of -3 or -5, you'd set the mix to 0 and it'd be "correct" by default (XY or Blumlein-equivalent), then you can adjust to taste from there. Its not a huge deal, but I think with the way you're approaching the levels, you feel like you're doing something drastic by cutting the side levels, when in fact, you're doing something drastic if you don't cut them. I just like to minimize my confusion, myself :-)

With these mixes, you can hear that the image pulls quite a bit to the left. Probably a matter of mic positioning, which is always a tad tricky with MS. I'm also confused about the "no-processing". It sounds like a lot of reverb to me. Is your room that lively? It doesn't sound bad, but it's certainly ambient. Maybe you're fairly far from the guitar?

[always guitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Both are a big improvement to my ear.

Cool - I like all 3 actually.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

With these mixes, you can hear that the image pulls quite a bit to the left. Probably a matter of mic positioning, which is always a tad tricky with MS. I'm also confused about the "no-processing". It sounds like a lot of reverb to me. Is your room that lively? It doesn't sound bad, but it's certainly ambient. Maybe you're fairly far from the guitar?

Left is the positive lobe of the ribbon - the right side being the negative lobe I have reversed it's phase. I will consider the stereo spectrum a little more carefully.
That is the sound of my room. Mics are 16"-17" away. I am up against a 69' x 12' concrete wall. Vaulted ceilings up to 17' and pergo floors. Next to the wall is the spot and I am really thankful that I live in an acoustic anomaly such as this. It's going to be part of my sound for a long time.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

That is the sound of my room. Mics are 16"-17" away. I am up against a 69' x 12' concrete wall. Vaulted ceilings up to 17' and pergo floors. Next to the wall is the spot and I am really thankful that I live in an acoustic anomaly such as this. It's going to be part of my sound for a long time.

AG

69 feet? That's 2 houses down the road for me. Sounds like a cathedral.

I wouldn't think the positive or negative phase would cause the imbalance. One hallmark of MS, if you get the position balanced, is a very centered, stable sound. To me, it has less of the tendency to favor one side or the other than spaced pairs or xy.

[always guitar]

Indeed, I live in an echo chamber. Now I need to learn how to properly use it.
After listening again, you can hear the treble of the guitar on the right and the bass on the left, perhaps what we are talking about is a HPF on the side to alleviate the width imbalance?
The negative side of the Apex 205 (which is on the right and out of phase) definitely has the bass rolled off compared to the positive side. It is not symmetrical.
To further this spacious test, my next will be an omni in the mid position. I want my room to be as much of the sound as the instrument. It's true.

It's a crazy space:


My beloved 1968 SG Custom:


AG

[Doug Young]

The space looks pretty cool. I guess different EQ response on the front than the back could play a role, but I'd think you could compensate for it with the mic placement. The mics I've used for MS are the same in both directions, so I haven't run into that. One neat thing with ms is that you can simply rotate the side mic a bit to adjust the stereo image.