Microphone help needed!

[Scott Whigham]

Originally Posted by itself

Great information here, and another question from a newbie.

How does one work with some mics real time? Do I go to Guitar Center and have them set things up? Do I have them record me or do I listen to the mics through amps?

A recording mic I would imagine, is going to sound different through an amp than a performing mic??

I want a mic that will capture my voice and guitar and not be bright, be rich and high quality without breaking the bank.

Lots of stuff in here to answer, Lisa.

#1 - There are options for trying out mics. One option is that you buy the mics, take them home and record with them, and then return them if you don't like them. That's what you would have to do with a large, mass retailer like Guitar Center. Other places will lend you the mics for you to try them in your studio.

#2 - When you have a mic, you plug the mic into a microphone preamp. This is not the same as a guitar amp. You then plug the preamp into an A/D (analog/digital) converter. You then plug the A/D converter into a computer interface (a card that allows your computer to access/read the digital signal from the AD converter). Sometimes you buy an "all in one unit" that has the mic preamps, converters, and interface in one box. You then pull up your recording software (a.k.a. your DAW such as Reaper or Pro Tools) and hit "Record".

To record:

• Plug your mic into the preamp's input
• Plug the output of the preamp into the A/D converter
• Plug the output of the A/D converter into the interface
• Plug the interface into your computer (often via USB or firewire but sometimes PCI)
• Launch your DAW
• Hit "Record"

When you are finished recording, you reverse the signal flow - the digital bits in the computer go back out of the interface and into the D/A converter. The studio monitors or headphones are then plugged into the D/A converter so that you can hear the (hopefully stellar) results of your recording efforts.

To play back:

• Plug your interface into the computer (if not already connected)
• Plug the output of the interface as an input into the D/A converter (now you're going the other way - converting digital back to analog)
• Connect your studio monitors into the L and R outputs of the D/A converters
• Press "Play" in your DAW

#3 - There's no such thing, AFAIK, as a "recording mic" vs. a "performing mic". A mic is a mic is a mic. Some people do not take mics out of the studio b/c perhaps that mic is {expensive | rare | fragile} but a mic is still a mic.

"I want a mic that will capture my voice and guitar and not be bright, be rich and high quality without breaking the bank" - good luck That's what all the consumers want, isn't it?

[GeorgeHeatley]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha George,

Glad to help, my friend. So, like myself, you use an iMac. Good. That gives you the free Garageband & you can move up the Logic Pro 9 when you feel the need (the sooner the better).

Don't consider ANY of the other entry-level interfaces with their inferior mic preamps. Get an Apogee Duet. Used Duet Model 1's (no longer made) can be found for under $200. The Duet Model 2 is excellent & also available used & affordable. A great value!

And now, Apogee offers the Quartet interface, with four world-class, onboard mic pre's if you're looking for more mic inputs for live recording.

And what about those Duet onboard Apogee preamp's, George? They are the best available onboard preamps available period for under $1500. Pristine, detailed, musical & accurate. You can't find any better. Don't get anything else. They ARE THAT much better. I often use them instead of the top-of-the-line, pro-level preamps I have. They are that good. And they are part of the Duet interface.

Furthermore, Apple & Apogee have fully-integrated the soft & hardware of the computers/interfaces. That makes the combo the most stable on the market. I haven't had one crash in over FOUR years using that combo with Logic Pro 9 DAW. Unbelievable!

So look no further, George. Here's what to get:

- A Duet Model 1 or 2 interface (new or used),
- A pair of Oktava MK-012 SDC's,
- A pair of Mogami Gold Quad Neglex mic cables,
- A pair of DR Pro DR259 ms1500 low-profile stands, &
- A pair of AT8415 low-profile shock-mounts

& you're all set for the front end for stereo miking & recording an acoustic guitar. I use the Duet for stereo two-tracks & an Ensemble to add in a coupla more mic's.

BUT THE KEY, as others have alluded to here, is ROOM TREATMENT. If you are using mic's to record an acoustic instrument then you have to control reflections in your space. No way around that. Use the search button & check some of my/our earlier Room Treatment discussions here.

Start with free used mover's blankets from a movers to control the mid's. Wash them & hammer in 1/2" grommets on one folded edge. Then hang double layers 4" off the walls/windows & 4" apart. Airspace is a good thing in room treatment.

Then think about making some of these great DIY portable broadband absorbers from Fran Guidry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPR0q1KzqQ

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/tag/broadband-absorber/

Room Treatment will make the largest difference in the quality of your recordings @ this stage, George, even more than your gear! It's not sexy, but it is absolutely necessary, IMO.

In my auditions, I found the Rode NT-5's to have an edge that is more suited, IMO, to cutting-through, live performance than acoustic guitar recordings. To me, it sounds like a cheaper Chinese mic. MK-012's or ADK A6's provide a more open, musical, warm acoustic sound w/o the hyped upper-mid's. That's much easier to place & control in a mix, IME.

We all hear differently, George. But most Rode mic's have the same edge to me. You have to move up the trough pretty far to the NTK LDC to have things sound more musical to my ears with that brand. But there is also much better out there.

I can't help you with European sources for the MK-012. But I'd also look at that Michael Joly mod site that I previously sent you. His mod to that mic is magic to my ears. He sells them. A clear audible difference. I used to own a pair.

All the best in putting together your new signal chain, George. Remember to consider ALL the elements of your chain when adding new parts. And NEVER mix entry with pro-level gear. You will lose headroom & openness as they fight each other. Do the homework, George.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

Question: What's the rest of your signal chain look like? Monitors, headphones, cabling, DAW, ext. storage HD, plug-in's, etc.?

Awesome reply, I have monitors and headphones, currently just garageband but like you said in your post at some point i will get logic.

I really like the duet, the only thing is the amount of inputs, I would love 4 but the quartet is just too expensive at the moment. I wonder if i go for the mk 012's and the duet, how long will it be before i want more inputs haha.

As for room treatment, i will just have to see what results i get first and work from there.

thanks, George

[ukejon]

How does one work with some mics real time? Do I go to Guitar Center and have them set things up? Do I have them record me or do I listen to the mics through amps?

One useful thing I've done is to get them to set up several mics in a quieter space and then listen through headphones. I'm listening to the way it shapes my voice when speaking, a guitar while playing, and importantly to the sound of the room itself. Different mics have very different self-noise levels and I want ones that are dead quiet. In a similar vein, some mics pic up room noise more than others. Again, because I only have a home "studio" finding the quietest, nicest sounding mic was a big plus (for me the Shure KSM 137).

Remember to consider ALL the elements of your chain when adding new parts. And NEVER mix entry with pro-level gear. You will lose headroom & openness as they fight each other.

Truer words were never spoken....

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHeatley

Awesome reply, I have monitors and headphones, currently just garageband but like you said in your post at some point i will get logic.

I really like the duet, the only thing is the amount of inputs, I would love 4 but the quartet is just too expensive at the moment. I wonder if i go for the mk 012's and the duet, how long will it be before i want more inputs haha.

As for room treatment, i will just have to see what results i get first and work from there.

thanks, George

Take this with a grain of salt; this is me seeing what you're thinking and remembering everything I have gone through with recording.

I go back and forth on everything you said here. I started with a 2 input interface and immediately wanted more. I pretty quickly sold it and bought the presonus firestudio I have now. If I go back and look at my last 100 gigs of recordings, I'll bet I can find 4 projects where I didn't use only two inputs and 2 of them would involve using a pickup and my guitar and 2 would involve a drum set. It's really nice to have the inputs but I never need them and rarely want to use them. I think it might be best to go with the Duet, especially the Duet 1 for now and just be sure that you're getting top of the line audio quality. I'm saving for a quartet right now since I do occasionally have a need for 3 inputs at school.

As for room treatment, it's the thing I've ignored the most and the thing which I should have started playing with first. It made the biggest improvement in my recordings other than sheer practice. The two foam panels that Chris linked to from Homebrewedmusic make a CRAZY amount of difference.

[Repair Dude]

Well I have to disagree with the Negatives about the Rode Mics

I have a good collection of Rode mics including the NT5's

The thing about USB or Firewire interfaces including the APOGEE

is they are just that , Interfaces , even if they have a Clean Mic pre in them . They dont give you ANY control over the mic ,only Gain

A Nice Mic Preamp that is dedicated to that Function , Working with the Mic or Mics . will do a great deal toward capturing "THAT" sound

A good mic preamp will have an Effect Loop , EQ , and Maybe even a Compressor/Limiter on it .

I have two fairly nice preamps in my rack that are mains

TL Audio 5051
Focusrite TwinTrak Pro

That gives me 3 channels of Channel strip level of sound .

You can find Use preamps now fairy reasonably , and a Good pre will make all the difference in a Mics Character

My NT5's sound great thru the Focusrite , but then I have all that control over the Mics

My NT2a sound Fabulous thru the TL Audio

another difference is that a good Mic pre will give you MUCH better Phantom power to the mics , Much Cleaner and better Regulated , and yes it does make a difference .

[ukejon]

Good point about having EQ control on the preamp/interface. I don't really need it for my solo acoustic recordings. I had a matched pair of NT5s and tried them through multiple preamps/interfaces (consumer grade, not professional). Couldn't calm down the sibilant highs. The Frequency Response graph on the Rode NT 5 shows a pretty broad boost above 5,000 khz, which didn't work so well for me with an Apogee Duet 2. The boost on the KSM 137 is less pronounced. The Shure also has a low end filter and its self noise is a bit quieter. Both are fine mics and it is worth comparing the two.

[alohachris]

Aloha Friends,

I agree with Ukejon here. RE: Rode mic's, "sibilance" is the operative term in describing many of their models' high end edginess. Most Chinese-made mic's have that sibilance.

Like you Repair Dude, I typically use a great mic preamp in my recording signal chain.

I currently use three, not including the fine onboard mic preamps on my Duet & Ensemble interfaces:

- Pendulum MDP-1a tube (primary)
- A Designs Pacifica
- Pendulum SPS-1.

Sure, you can control just about ANY mic with a good pre, channel-strip or plug-in EQ. But the question is: why should you? if better, less-hyped mic's are available then why not use them? Why start with something like the cheap & cheap-sounding NT-5 that needs a "fix" in the first place?

BTW, I feel the same way about the much better sounding but edgy-in-the uppermid's KM184. Great for live. Much easier to fix than an NT-5 in mixing.

The NT-5 is an excellent mic for live because of that very "cutting through" quality & capability. But I really don't like ANY Rode mic for recording. Hey, we all hear differently, right? And certainly, There are MUCH better mic's available that do not require a lot of EQ'ing like the Rode's do.

Just one man's opinion.

alohachris

[Fran Guidry]

And yet one of the most renowned classical music recordists in history uses the Rode NT5 on award winning orchestra recordings. Of course the gentleman stopped participating in a recording forum because a no-nothing nobody poster insisted that the distinguished engineer's hearing must be damaged if he found the NT5 acceptable.

And "bright" mics like the KM184 and AKG 451 are used on acoustic guitar recordings by the thousands every year.

If a person can't make a beautiful, moving, emotionally compelling recording with a Rode NT5, they will not make a beautiful, moving, emotionally compelling recording with a Schoeps or DPA or Josephson or vintage Neumann or gold plated Brauner.

And if they can make such a recording, they can do it on a Zoom H4n, as Doug Young has demonstrated repeatedly.

Fran

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Repair Dude

A good mic preamp will have an Effect Loop , EQ , and Maybe even a Compressor/Limiter on it . .

This will probably vary with your work style. It really depends on if you want to apply these things as you are tracking. If you're an engineer in a "real" studio, sitting behind the glass and listening to your artist play in total isolation, you can probably dial in the right amount of compression/EQ maybe even effects while you're recording. But you'd better be right, because you won't be able to undo it later. But for most of us who are home recording, that's really hard, almost impossible. You can't really play and listen critically at the same time to the mix over the speakers. If applying that stuff while you're tracking works for you, great, but I have better luck recording as "raw" as I can. No EQ, no compression, no effects. Then when I'm mixing, when I can really hear what I'm doing, I can tweak the sound all I want. And change my mind over and over if I want. If I "printed" it, by setting EQ, effects, etc going in, I'm out of luck if I don't like the result.

As an aside, I'd suggest that most high end preamps - the really good stuff - have none of these (there are a few exceptions). When you get to "good" preamps, they tend to be dedicated to a single task. Many of them have a single knob (for gain) on each channel. The more they cost, the fewer knobs :-) If you want to add effects, compression and so on, you add another dedicated box for that. You can easily spend several thousand for a preamp, many more thousands for a compressor, more thousands for an EQ, many more thousands for reverbs, etc. All as separate units, for the really "good" ones.

[Repair Dude]

I hear a lot of people say "Chinese Mics" when talking about Rode

They are NOT Chinese Mics .

I happen to know the RODE people , and have friend that live quite close to the RODE headquarters

They are Made in Australia and are very well Machined

Any mic you can think of that comes with a 10 year Guarantee ?

I have worked in a number of Pro Studio environments , and assure you that Most of them Have RODE mics in the arsenal and are used quite frequently

The NT4 especially . and on Acoustic instruments the NT4 is a nice mic .

Audix is another company I highly recommend

the SCX-25's are incredible for the price
The SCX ONE could be a little nicer for the price point .

The NT2A , is a Mic that either works for you or doesn't , but to badmouth it, isnt a correct position to take . IMHO.

A Super Jumbo or Deep Body Dreadnought guitar actually benefits greatly from the NT2A frequency curve , and with the Variable Polar patterns lends itself to many applications whereas the 214 is a single pattern mic with a sterile sound in my ears .

In a side by side test of an earlier AKGC414 UBLS , and the Rode NT2a
I chose the Rode , and not because of the price
The AKG was a Used mic and had a Comparable price point , I could have had either .
Mandolin and Cello sound very good thru the NT2a

But Yes it is Mainly a Vocal Mic , and is built for that purpose .



But this does need to be known

RODE mics ........are not Chinese

[Sam VanLaningham]

Hi. Sorry I'm late to the party. I have some thoughts for you.

I run a stereo pair of AT Pro 37's. These are great for the small price of ~$200 for the pair. Its important to note I've not A/B 'ed them with the octavas (and during the pursuit I got the sense that the octavas are the better stereo pair....but maybe not wayyy better?). I also like the versatility of these pro 37s because they work well on stage too. But what I like most about this option is that it leaves some cash to put into a better interface or preamp. I'm alsways going to want more mics but preamps and/or interfaces tend to last longer without me "needing" to upgrade!

Being a Mac guy I also spent a lot of time trying to figure out if I should get the duet. In the end I went with a steinberg mr816 and LOVE it. It has worked better with my Mac than any other interface, and I've had a few.

So, sorry to potentially muddy the waters but in case budget and number of inputs on an interface were causing a dilemma, I thought I'd offer this option up because I like it a lot.

Sam

[GeorgeHeatley]

Hey everyone, thought i would update this thread a wee bit and take the opportunity to ask a couple of questions.

I have bought my Oktava Mk-012's and am already very pleased with them, I bought them without having yet bought an interface so i could try them before deciding what interface i wanted based on whether i would want more than 2 inputs.

So I have decided I do want more than 2 inputs but for what i want 4 will do just fine. This is so i can use another input for a large diaphragm condensor or a guitar input.

I would love to get the apogee quartet but its way above my price range to be honest. So recommendations would be cool within 200-400 pounds.

The results i have had so far were good however when i import a sound file to itunes for example it is a lot quieter than in garageband, could anyone tell me a reason for this?

Lastly, i'm sure there is things in my head i have missed but I will post them when they come to me haha.

Thanks again, George

[Scott Whigham]

iTunes (or any "media player" for that matter) is for playing tracks at or close to 0dbFS. When you are tracking in Garageband, your recording levels are likely in the -24db to -10dbFS range with an average in the -18ish area (or at least that's where most folks like them to fall). I don't know GB all that well but I know lots of other DAWs. If you want "louder", you have to move the fader up. So are you moving the faders up in Garageband? That would make it "louder" in Garageband but, when you close the project, you haven't changed the actual WAV file thus iTunes plays it back at -18db.

If you want to play your tracks in iTunes or on your phone/media player, I'd suggest you normalize a version of the file. You can search "How to normalize in Garageband" for some ideas.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHeatley

Hey everyone, thought i would update this thread a wee bit and take the opportunity to ask a couple of questions.

I have bought my Oktava Mk-012's and am already very pleased with them, I bought them without having yet bought an interface so i could try them before deciding what interface i wanted based on whether i would want more than 2 inputs.

So I have decided I do want more than 2 inputs but for what i want 4 will do just fine. This is so i can use another input for a large diaphragm condensor or a guitar input.

I would love to get the apogee quartet but its way above my price range to be honest. So recommendations would be cool within 200-400 pounds.

The results i have had so far were good however when i import a sound file to itunes for example it is a lot quieter than in garageband, could anyone tell me a reason for this?

Lastly, i'm sure there is things in my head i have missed but I will post them when they come to me haha.

Thanks again, George

Good choice!

As for an interface. What about the motu 4 pre? It's very, very flexible, has decent conversion and decent pres. Really good deal honestly. If that's stretching your budget a bit, you could go for the presonus 44vsl. Good, though sterile pres and decent conversion. It works well with the oktavas; I have it's bigger brother for my big recordings.

As for iTunes....go to your garageband preferences (command ,) then advanced and make sure auto normalize or export at max volume or whatever it is is turned off. This will play with your audio levels a bit.

[GeorgeHeatley]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Good choice!

As for an interface. What about the motu 4 pre? It's very, very flexible, has decent conversion and decent pres. Really good deal honestly. If that's stretching your budget a bit, you could go for the presonus 44vsl. Good, though sterile pres and decent conversion. It works well with the oktavas; I have it's bigger brother for my big recordings.

As for iTunes....go to your garageband preferences (command ,) then advanced and make sure auto normalize or export at max volume or whatever it is is turned off. This will play with your audio levels a bit.

The presonus 44vsl was what i initially looked at, is something like the motu 4 pre much better for the money? After all I was looking at spending £400 on a duet 2 if it wasn't for the fact i would like more inputs.

Thanks, George