Is this a bad neck reset?

[LemonCats]

Hey everyone!
I'm in the market for a certain vintage guitar and I found one in pretty good condition thats already had a neck reset but I noticed underneath the fretboard close to the soundhole is a piece of like 'filler' or 'spacer' wood. I'd imagine to get the neck angle right.

But along time ago I heard someone say that this type of thing was bad or improper or amateur...something along those lines.

Im wondering is this a bad thing? Or improper, amateur, etc

Here are the pics:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3

Im also wondering (In Image #2) what that beam is underneath the fretboard, inside the guitar, connected to one of the struts. It looks like its holding up the top of the guitar. Is this normal? Is this a bad thing?

[charles Tauber]

Run, don’t walk, the other way.

The wedge under the fingerboard extension is one of two ways to deal with that area of the fingerboard as part of a neck reset. But, it isn’t tastefully done. The rosewood wedge under the white bindings makes it jump out at you. The thickness of the wedge shows there was quite a large change in neck angle. Add to that the presence of the popsicle stick between back and top braces suggests there could be some structural issues.

Then there’s the frets that are short and flat. It isn’t an instrument I’d recommend unless it was selling for very little.

[LemonCats]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Run, don’t walk, the other way.

The wedge under the fingerboard extension is one of two ways to deal with that area of the fingerboard as part of a neck reset. But, it isn’t tastefully done. The rosewood wedge under the white bindings makes it jump out at you. The thickness of the wedge shows there was quite a large change in neck angle. Add to that the presence of the popsicle stick between back and top braces suggests there could be some structural issues.

Then there’s the frets that are short and flat. It isn’t an instrument I’d recommend unless it was selling for very little.

phweew thank you so much for responding! its selling for $690 so with all these signs i definitely don't feel comfortable buying it, no wonder its been for sale for over a year!

[mirwa]

That is a radical neck angle change.

I would avoid as well

Steve

[Silly Moustache]

This is your prospective Harmony H1270 isn't it?

If it was an expensive Martin or some such guitar then I'd follow the above advice but on a Harmony which whilst not being the cheapest option that you were originally considering, is still (always was) a cheap guitar.

The wedge under the neck extension may not be very pretty, but if the neck is straight, the top is not seriously dipped, and the action is right, then ...anything goes.
By all means avoid if you wish, but I doubt that you'd find an H1270 that hasn't been "messed about with" in some way.

If it works and plays - it's good.

[stormin1155]

My vote goes with Silly Mustache. I've done lots of neck resets, and what you see on this guitar isn't uncommon at all. One could debate whether it would look better with a light colored wedge vs. dark, but if it needs a wedge to have a straight neck, it is what it is. Most old Harmony's like that have either had a neck reset or need one. I would much rather take a chance on one that has already had a reset... that way you know what you're dealing with. One that needs a reset... who knows how that will turn out.

The vertical stick under the fingerboard is a bit hillybillish. I'd be more concerned with what's going on there than the neck reset.

If it was a vintage guitar worth thousands, that's a different story, but it is a player-grade, relatively cheap guitar. Playability is far more important than how it looks or its market value.

[LemonCats]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

This is your prospective Harmony H1270 isn't it?

If it was an expensive Martin or some such guitar then I'd follow the above advice but on a Harmony which whilst not being the cheapest option that you were originally considering, is still (always was) a cheap guitar.

The wedge under the neck extension may not be very pretty, but if the neck is straight, the top is not seriously dipped, and the action is right, then ...anything goes.
By all means avoid if you wish, but I doubt that you'd find an H1270 that hasn't been "messed about with" in some way.

If it works and plays - it's good.

Yeah unfortunately it is the H1270 we talked about ��

Originally Posted by stormin1155

My vote goes with Silly Mustache. I've done lots of neck resets, and what you see on this guitar isn't uncommon at all. One could debate whether it would look better with a light colored wedge vs. dark, but if it needs a wedge to have a straight neck, it is what it is. Most old Harmony's like that have either had a neck reset or need one. I would much rather take a chance on one that has already had a reset... that way you know what you're dealing with. One that needs a reset... who knows how that will turn out.

The vertical stick under the fingerboard is a bit hillybillish. I'd be more concerned with what's going on there than the neck reset.

If it was a vintage guitar worth thousands, that's a different story, but it is a player-grade, relatively cheap guitar. Playability is far more important than how it looks or its market value.

Yeah i kind of agree with you and silly, the different wood isnt that big of a deal for me and if a wedge is what it took to get the neck playable than so be it.

However that vertical stick is very concerning to me, what if the guitar falls someday/i put too much pressure on it/my cats jump on the top/etc and that stick breaks? than im left with a guitar with a sunken top? and will have to pay who knows how much to get that worked on

Also what does everyone think about the really really low fret wires? is that going to make it so ill have to really press down in order for the string to hopefully go far enough down below the fret to play cleanly

Im not totally sure what to say/ask about that stick to the seller, i guess i will just point it out to them and ask whats going on with that?

[LemonCats]

------added this reply to my reply above-----

[snow creek]

This is a similar guitar for a similar price...And no weird popsicle stick thingy...

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-000-size.html

edit- nevermind- not a similar guitar...
How do I delete a post?

[redir]

I can't quite tell what's going on in Image #2 in the sound hole. Something looks badly photo shopped there.

But anyway as mentioned it's a common method for dealing with too much fall away after setting the neck. In all fairness the previous owner may have not wanted to pay more for pure cosmetics so the binding, which also looks like it's been drawn on, is undercut by the wedge.

BUt there was some serious caving in above the sound hole there. My guess would be that they upper transverse brace had cracked. The frets are terrible too so you would be buying a guitar that needs a lot of work.

[charles Tauber]

In response to redir's comments, I looked at the photos again, this time much more closely than my earlier casual glance. It's worse than I initially thought.

1. I don't understand the photo retouching of the "popsicle" stick, what was being accomplished by that. It suggests the seller isn't honestly portraying what he is selling. The popsicle stick suggests an attempt to keep the top/neck from caving into the sound hole. (i.e. a structural problem.)

2. In the first photo, there is something very wrong with the geometry of the sound hole on the treble side at the end of the fingerboard. In the second photo, there appears to be a crack in the top extending from the edge of the sound hole upwards about in line with the tip of the pickguard. The sound hole looks like it undercuts the end of the fingerboard. Could be an optical illusion.

3. In the second photo, there is some brace-like thing in the interior that abruptly stops - square ended between the E and B strings. I'd guess that it is a piece of brace glued to the side of the transverse brace.

4. In the second photo, to the left, beneath the A string, there is a crack in the top. It extends from the left edge of the photo to the edge of the sound hole. There is also a crack in the top the starts at the sound hole's edge right next to the B string in that photo. It is difficult to see how far towards the bridge it extends.

5. The frets are too flat. They can't be crowned because there isn't enough height to do so. They should have been replaced. A refret will run $150 to $300 depending upon who does it and where. That will include either shimming the nut or replacing the nut.


To be clear, I don't collect guitars and have little interest in "vintage". For me to have much interest in a guitar it would need to play well, sound well and be structurally sound. For me, unless it was a historically significant instrument, it's a question of economics: is the instrument worth what I'd pay to buy it and what I'd pay to have it play well, sound well and be structurally sound?

In other words, is this instrument the best use of $1000? What else could I buy for that money that would play well, sound well and be structurally sound. If "vintage" is an important factor for you, or owning a Harmony is an important factor for you, figure those into the equation. For me, it would be a $1k headache that I'd likely never get anyone to buy for that price, should I ever want to sell it.

[kkrell]

Were you looking for one where you would keep the original ladder bracing? If not, I'd contact Scott Baxendale and see if they either have one already converted to their X-bracing, or see if they can supply ladder bracing with whatever necessary repairs, neck reset, etc. that they normally do.

I was hoping to get a conversion on this one from my family (discussed on https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...15#post4162315 ), but now I don't need a 2nd 12-string, and still can't justify the cost with 2-way shipping.

[Neil K Walk]

OP, I would listen to Mr. Tauber. He is a luthier and has given solid advice to me in the past regarding my hobby as a sometimes builder. As the unfortunate owner of another "vintage" 12 string in poor repair I'd second his advice to pass on this.

PS: I also see some odd discoloration on the kerfed lining inside the soundhole in the first photo. I suspect this guitar would fail the "sniff test" too. At worst it's probably going to cause some respiratory distress.

Personally, I think any 12 string with severe structural issues is better used to keep warm in the winter months. Just remove the strings first. I'm sure the popsicle stick inside would be the first thing to go if exposed to about 300 degrees.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Run, don’t walk, the other way.

The wedge under the fingerboard extension is one of two ways to deal with that area of the fingerboard as part of a neck reset. But, it isn’t tastefully done. The rosewood wedge under the white bindings makes it jump out at you. The thickness of the wedge shows there was quite a large change in neck angle. Add to that the presence of the popsicle stick between back and top braces suggests there could be some structural issues.

Then there’s the frets that are short and flat. It isn’t an instrument I’d recommend unless it was selling for very little.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

In response to redir's comments, I looked at the photos again, this time much more closely than my earlier casual glance. It's worse than I initially thought.

1. I don't understand the photo retouching of the "popsicle" stick, what was being accomplished by that. It suggests the seller isn't honestly portraying what he is selling. The popsicle stick suggests an attempt to keep the top/neck from caving into the sound hole. (i.e. a structural problem.)

2. In the first photo, there is something very wrong with the geometry of the sound hole on the treble side at the end of the fingerboard. In the second photo, there appears to be a crack in the top extending from the edge of the sound hole upwards about in line with the tip of the pickguard. The sound hole looks like it undercuts the end of the fingerboard. Could be an optical illusion.

3. In the second photo, there is some brace-like thing in the interior that abruptly stops - square ended between the E and B strings. I'd guess that it is a piece of brace glued to the side of the transverse brace.

4. In the second photo, to the left, beneath the A string, there is a crack in the top. It extends from the left edge of the photo to the edge of the sound hole. There is also a crack in the top the starts at the sound hole's edge right next to the B string in that photo. It is difficult to see how far towards the bridge it extends.

5. The frets are too flat. They can't be crowned because there isn't enough height to do so. They should have been replaced. A refret will run $150 to $300 depending upon who does it and where. That will include either shimming the nut or replacing the nut.


To be clear, I don't collect guitars and have little interest in "vintage". For me to have much interest in a guitar it would need to play well, sound well and be structurally sound. For me, unless it was a historically significant instrument, it's a question of economics: is the instrument worth what I'd pay to buy it and what I'd pay to have it play well, sound well and be structurally sound?

In other words, is this instrument the best use of $1000? What else could I buy for that money that would play well, sound well and be structurally sound. If "vintage" is an important factor for you, or owning a Harmony is an important factor for you, figure those into the equation. For me, it would be a $1k headache that I'd likely never get anyone to buy for that price, should I ever want to sell it.

[LemonCats]

Originally Posted by kkrell

Were you looking for one where you would keep the original ladder bracing? If not, I'd contact Scott Baxendale and see if they either have one already converted to their X-bracing, or see if they can supply ladder bracing with whatever necessary repairs, neck reset, etc. that they normally do.

I was hoping to get a conversion on this one from my family (discussed on https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...15#post4162315 ), but now I don't need a 2nd 12-string, and still can't justify the cost with 2-way shipping.

Yeah Id be keeping the ladder bracing. Im just looking for a 12 string guitar with ladder bracing and its quite the struggle haha. It seems these Harmonies/Oscar Schmidt are the only ones available on the market unless you're willing to pay $3,000 Usd for a luthier (Hauver or Fraulini) to build you a replica.
Has anyone had a Baxendale conversion here? I know price would vary from guitar to guitar but what were some of the prices people have paid for their conversions?

[kkrell]

Originally Posted by LemonCats

Has anyone had a Baxendale conversion here? I know price would vary from guitar to guitar but what were some of the prices people have paid for their conversions?

I feel OK pullng this from an email, as the prices were in 2014 & Scott can tell you what's current. For the 12-string H1270, it was $200-400 for neck reset and set up without doing the brace conversion, doing the minimal to make it play good.

I'll send you a PM on what is accomplished on the full conversion (again, old info from 2014). It was pretty extensive work, though, which is what my guitar would need, since the neck is collapsing into the soundhole. All that structural work + the new bracing, reset, refret, setup, etc. was included. My reason for considering all that was also to be able to go to a standard pin bridge & have the guitar safe for standard pitch.

I ended up buying one of those chinese-made Guild D1212s and don't regret it.

If the guitar was a H1260 (6-string), I wouldn't have hesitated going for the conversion.