Neck woods other than mahogany

[printer2]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

If you can only get quality wood flatsawn, just build up a laminate neck where you cut both sides from the same board, and voila! the grain now runs vertically...

I am ok with the grain flat sawn. How many million Fenders have been built that way?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by printer2

I am ok with the grain flat sawn. How many million Fenders have been built that way?

Probably as many million necks that suffer from a "rising tongue." Or as many million that are made to be just wall flowers for Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Warmoth will tell you it doesn't matter. Hopefully, since we don't mass produce necks like Fender or Warmoth, we can have better control of "how" our wood is oriented. Because we supposedly want to offer what they possibly cannot (unless you sell your first born and possibly second.)

Sometimes you don't have a choice, as with bird's eye. But that's the exception not the rule.

[Quickstep192]

I’m a big fan of the 5 piece neck. It allows use of smaller pieces and is stable.

Looks nice too.


https://goo.gl/images/qNa1tY

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

I’m a big fan of the 5 piece neck. It allows use of smaller pieces and is stable.

Looks nice too.


https://goo.gl/images/qNa1tY

Done a few myself, and been happy with the results and look as well..

[John Arnold]

I am ok with the grain flat sawn.

So am I. I have built guitars with slab cut necks (both cherry and mahogany), and never had a problem.

Probably as many million necks that suffer from a "rising tongue." Or as many million that are made to be just wall flowers for Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Warmoth will tell you it doesn't matter. Hopefully, since we don't mass produce necks like Fender or Warmoth, we can have better control of "how" our wood is oriented. Because we supposedly want to offer what they possibly cannot (unless you sell your first born and possibly second.)

I must assume you think quartersawn wood is stiffer. It is not. It is either the same stiffness (most hardwoods) or less stiff than slab cut (most softwoods).
Nor is is more stable when used as a neck. Slab cut moves more across its width, while quartersawn moves more through its thickness. Either one is not troublesome because of the small relative dimensions. What IS troublesome is uneven movement, which is caused by curved grain. Curved grain is also less strong, due to runout.
Hard maple (as used on Fenders) is not a particularly stable wood. I prefer soft maple for my acoustic necks, since it is more stable and weighs less.

Are we able to use basically any wood for the neck, now that we have CF reinforcements and such^

True, but there are woods that are too heavy to have good balance on a lightly-built acoustic, and woods that are too soft to resist denting in ordinary use.
I can recommend several medium density domestic hardwoods for acoustics: soft maple, walnut, cherry, poplar, and ash, to name a few. Straight grain preferred, of course.
For solid body guitars, where weight is not a concern, denser woods like padauk, wenge, rosewood, bubinga, osage orange, black locust, etc. can work just fine. The advantage with many dense woods is greater stiffness. Locust and osage orange are among the stiffest of all domestic woods. Locust is a little lighter and more stable than osage. It is also stiffer and more stable than hard maple......making it superior for Fender style electrics.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I must assume you think quartersawn wood is stiffer. It is not. It is either the same stiffness (most hardwoods) or less stiff than slab cut (most softwoods).
Nor is is more stable when used as a neck. Slab cut moves more across its width, while quartersawn moves more through its thickness. Either one is not troublesome because of the small relative dimensions. What IS troublesome is uneven movement, which is caused by curved grain. Curved grain is also less strong, due to runout.
Hard maple (as used on Fenders) is not a particularly stable wood. I prefer soft maple for my acoustic necks, since it is more stable and weighs less.

John, your work is one I admire greatly! But as in the words of the late Benny Hill, "Never assume!" as my understanding and belief on this has nothing to do with stiffness.

[John Arnold]

Please elaborate. I am all ears.
FWIW, the Fender style of bolt-on neck is an inherently flawed design, and that has nothing to do with the material.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Please elaborate. I am all ears.
FWIW, the Fender style of bolt-on neck is an inherently flawed design, and that has nothing to do with the material.

Well, for one, since the radial shrinkage in hard rock maple is about half that of its flatsawn shrinkage, it stands that a vintage one piece strat or tele style neck will suffer from fret stick-out more with a flat-sawn neck as the neck ages. Also I further believe that flatsawn boards, being more susceptible to cupping, can increase the chances of buzzing frets up the neck, down the road of the life of the neck, since it does not cup evenly. Finally, I believe (and have tested) that while the "bend strength" of a neck made with [hard rock] maple is similar either flatsawn or quartersawn, it's more how the particular neck bends under force of strings that concerns me; and from what I've observed, the quartersawn bolt-on necks I've made tend to bend more "evenly" than the flatsawn ones.

Of course I have absolutely no hard data to either prove or dismiss this, just my observations.

Not related to strength, having nicely vertical grain with little to no runout allows one to carve said neck always downhill to the grain, mitigating tear-out. Sure, abrading the wood works just as well, and I also use rasps and files, but I still like to take the majority of wood out with edge tools.

Now, I realize that this is probably not as important on necks that have a separate fretboard, but my comment was in response to Fred's specific example of Fender necks.

[John Arnold]

Your original comment stated one specific problem....rising tongue. My response was in regard to that only.....and I still contend it has nothing to do with the grain orientation.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Your original comment stated one specific problem....rising tongue. My response was in regard to that only.....and I still contend it has nothing to do with the grain orientation.

GUH... I didn't intend to give that impression, but yhis is what happens when your thoughts move faster than 2 thumbs on a dumb phone.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Now, I realize that this is probably not as important on necks that have a separate fretboard, but my comment was in response to Fred's specific example of Fender necks.

I just used Fender necks as an example of the neck shrinking with humidity changes. Strength or stiffness wise I do not see a reason quartered vs flat sawn would be a major issue.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by printer2

I just used Fender necks as an example of the neck shrinking with humidity changes. Strength or stiffness wise I do not see a reason quartered vs flat sawn would be a major issue.

Yes, but my reasoning had not much to do with either, and more to do with the points I stated above. But as long as the wood is relatively solid and can hold its "hoop" shape reasonably well under string pull, and the relationship between trussrod and top of the fretboard does not change while the trussrod is in tension, then the neck will "work" fine. Heck, if you made the neck thick enough, you could eliminate the trussrod and the neck would be playable for a pretty long time, regardless of whether it were flatsawn or quartered.

I played enough one-piece maple flatsawn necks that acted like cheese graters when I slid up and down. Unless he tangs were trimmed, the slots were filled, and the fretboard filed back with the bevel of the frets - which reduces the fret playing "surface." Filing the ends semi-hemispherically is an option, but other than the few I've done that way, I haven't seen that on a Strat neck.

[John Arnold]

Of course, double the shrinkage wth a flat sawn maple neck and you are more likely to have the frets stick out when you don't humidify the guitar properly. Ebony is another wood that is not known for stability, yet it is used universally for fingerboards because of its other attributes.
Cupping is a real problem with flat sawn wood cut near the center of the log. The small radius of the growth rings is the cause. The classic example is 2X6 decking that is cut green from minimal size logs. But I doubt it comes into play in a well seasoned flat sawn maple neck. That is because maple is relatively unique in that the more valuable white wood (the sapwood) is cut near the outside of the log, where the growth rings have little curvature. I have seen many Fender necks (and owned a few), and the growth rings don't tend to have much curvature....particularly when compared to the narrow width of a neck.

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Please elaborate. I am all ears.
FWIW, the Fender style of bolt-on neck is an inherently flawed design, and that has nothing to do with the material.

In what way is the Fender bolt on neck design an inherently flawed design ?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Of course, double the shrinkage wth a flat sawn maple neck and you are more likely to have the frets stick out when you don't humidify the guitar properly. Ebony is another wood that is not known for stability, yet it is used universally for fingerboards because of its other attributes.
Cupping is a real problem with flat sawn wood cut near the center of the log. The small radius of the growth rings is the cause. The classic example is 2X6 decking that is cut green from minimal size logs. But I doubt it comes into play in a well seasoned flat sawn maple neck. That is because maple is relatively unique in that the more valuable white wood (the sapwood) is cut near the outside of the log, where the growth rings have little curvature. I have seen many Fender necks (and owned a few), and the growth rings don't tend to have much curvature....particularly when compared to the narrow width of a neck.

Agree 100%. Though, maple trees do not always grow symmetrically, and the growth "rings" can vary in curvature along the ring. So unless one was actually the sawyer of said log, it may not always be accurate to determine the location of cut simply by looking at the grain lines.

But yes, I've owned, played, and made necks with flatsawn wood - quilted and birdseye maple in particular, because that's obviously the cut where these figuring occur. But if I wanted to make a neck in the best way I know how (and the nicest looking in my opinion) I would personally choose a quartersawn billet all day.