Simple Preamp Comparison

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

Here's my 2 cents:

The Apogee sounds neutral and unhyped. Surprisingly good for the price.
The Apollo sounds hyped.
The Zoom sounds a bit tinny.
The Great River colors the sound in a pleasant way. Adds boom and sizzle.

FWIW I prefer to record an uncolored sound and then add color or weight to the track in the mixing process later if I feel a need. Doug don't you also have an RPQ preamp?

Keep in mind that the Apollo is using a Neve 1073 simulation, probably what you're hearing as hyped. I expect the raw Apollo would be neutral, similar to the Apogee, but I didn't do a sample of it without the plugin. I just thought the emulation would an interesting thing to throw into the mix. There's supposed to be some magic to the Neve sound... (tho of course, this isn't the real thing)

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

Here's my 2 cents:

The Apogee sounds neutral and unhyped. Surprisingly good for the price.
The Apollo sounds hyped.
The Zoom sounds a bit tinny.
The Great River colors the sound in a pleasant way. Adds boom and sizzle.

FWIW I prefer to record an uncolored sound and then add color or weight to the track in the mixing process later if I feel a need. Doug don't you also have an RPQ preamp?

Do you use the RPQ with condenser microphones?

[Doug Young]

Doug don't you also have an RPQ preamp?

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Do you use the RPQ with condenser microphones?

Sorry, I missed this question. Yes, I do have an RPQ. I have used it with condensers and it works great, very clean, tho it's ideal for ribbons (built-in shelf EQ, and high gain). I was going to include it in this, and I also have the Pendulum SPS-1, which some people use for recording. I just decided I'd end up with too many samples for anyone to listen to :-)

[AcousticDreams]

All of your shootouts are very revealing and have offered substantial insights in the quest to record acoustic guitar.

Maybe I am making to general of a statement....but It seems that in the shootout comparisons I have seen and heard: Drums, Vocals, pianos, flutes, & acoustic guitars= acoustic guitar recordings are possibly the most revealing in microphones and preamps true character.

You have now peaked my curiosity on RPQ. Frankly it is a less expensive alternative to its competition, that touts neutral tone with wide dynamic & Freq range to 30k complemented by Extra gain and built in frequency shaping. The one thing that it doesn't have is Phase lifting for each channel.

I would have thought, that a preamp designed for ribbons would not be optimal for Condensors especially since Ribbons are Not noted for their higher end frequency response. However with the mention of its use here on this thread...and One review on Sweetwater I am now very curious... " I've used the preamp with 414s and found that the preamp helps bring new life into those, despite them already being bright and powerful mics." Sweetwater

Again, RPQ is less expensive than its competition. So Doug, if you feel so inclined I would love to hear a comparison between the RPQ and Great River on your 641's

But alas, there is still one more burning question on my mind. Is it possible that Tube preamps have something over non tube? Yes, we all know that tube amps can add distortion, odd order harmonics, and even some form of compression through hitting a false ceiling...But sometimes I hear an Openness to tube mics & preamps as well. Maybe it is not openness and something else?..like added harmonics. Have not a clue. But I have heard you say how you you favor your tube Brauners.

I don't think you have a tube preamp? Other wise I would suggest that be thrown in as well....but a comparison between the Great River and RPQ with the 641's would most certainly be interesting.

Sometimes we discover new purposes for a product, that it was not really designed for. I do not think that when the first electric Guitar amplifiers came out, that their intent was to produce a distorted sound. Yet, that distortion became the foundation for future electric guitar amplifiers.

[rick-slo]

Nothing special about a preamp to be used with ribbon microphones except the ability of the preamp to produce quiet and distortion free high gain (since ribbons in general have lower sensitivity).

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Nothing special about a preamp to be used with ribbon microphones except the ability of the preamp to produce quiet and distortion free high gain (since ribbons in general have lower sensitivity).

Right, what makes the RPQ a "ribbon preamp" is that 1) AEA sells it :-), 2) it's quiet, 3) higher gain than many, 4) low and high shelfing EQ, especially useful for brightening up and de-booming ribbons, 5) dedicated non-phantom powered inputs, so you don't have any degradation from blocking capacitors, and maybe more importantly, you can be sure you never accidentally apply phantom power. Otherwise, it's just a nice clean preamp, apparently based on a circuit by Fred Forsell. https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/aea-rpq

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

The one thing that it doesn't have is Phase lifting for each channel.

It does have a phase switch on each channel, tho this isn't something I'd ever use. If I need polarity flipping, I can do it in the DAW, but other than a mis-wired mic cable (which I'd rather fix), not something I need.

So Doug, if you feel so inclined I would love to hear a comparison between the RPQ and Great River on your 641's

I'll try to do one for you.

I don't think you have a tube preamp?

No. I used to, didn't really hear anything significantly different with it. Possibly makes more of a difference in applications other than acoustic guitar. There are nice plugins that can add a "tube" aspect to your sound, an easy way to see if you like the effect.

[AcousticDreams]

Look forward to hearing that shootout.

I do see now, after reading the SOS Review...is that the impedance is much higher on this preamp than non ribbon preamps. So that would be the next question for myself to research...how that higher Impedance effects the sound of a condenser who usually is run through lesser impedance. That could be the breaking...or maybe even making point. Again, we are often surprised at how using something differently can offer something more.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Look forward to hearing that shootout.

I do see now, after reading the SOS Review...is that the impedance is much higher on this preamp than non ribbon preamps. So that would be the next question for myself to research...how that higher Impedance effects the sound of a condenser who usually is run through lesser impedance. That could be the breaking...or maybe even making point. Again, we are often surprised at how using something differently can offer something more.

I expect impedance to matter with passive mics (i.e. mostly ribbons and dynamics) more than condensers, which have their own preamp/buffer built in.

See here, for example: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-a...amp-impedances Note that they're mostly talking about "older" mics and dynamics, with an SM57 being pictured.

A lot of this stuff gets so far down in the minute details that I don't find it matters. It's not that there may not be a difference, but I can make a bigger difference by shifting in my chair by an inch or 2, meaning I could completely eliminate the benefit of lots of $$$ worth of gear - or make up for the lack of $$$ worth of gear - just by how I sit down. I like to explore lots of things, and it's worth answering any concerns to your satisfaction with your own experiments, but in the end, I prefer to focus on things that can make a *big* difference. Room acoustics, the guitar, mic placement, and the performance tends to swamp everything else.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Look forward to hearing that shootout.

I do see now, after reading the SOS Review...is that the impedance is much higher on this preamp than non ribbon preamps. So that would be the next question for myself to research...how that higher Impedance effects the sound of a condenser who usually is run through lesser impedance. That could be the breaking...or maybe even making point. Again, we are often surprised at how using something differently can offer something more.

The AEA preamp has a high input impedance (as designed for ribbons), but if the phantom power is turned on (for condenser mic use) the impedance drops to 10K.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No. I used to, didn't really hear anything significantly different with it. Possibly makes more of a difference in applications other than acoustic guitar. There are nice plugins that can add a "tube" aspect to your sound, an easy way to see if you like the effect.

I know we all hear things differently, and thank god for that, otherwise the world would be a boring place. But I rarely record an acoustic without a tube preamp, my favorite being the Sebatron VMP. It just does something magic to the tone that I like. And I have have a lot of tube simulation plugs, but to me, they do not bring the magic I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the tone you're shooting for and what your ideal acoustic guitar tone is. Lately I've been recording acoustic guitar with a single U87ai and a UA LA610 pre/com. I'm not really driving the mic, pre or comp hard but they are imparting a tone that's working for my ear. And they aren't the only thing imparting a tone. My room has got 13 foot ceilings which bring a natural air to the mix that is controllable by the distance the mic is from the guitar top. I also use the multiple impedance controls on my LA610 as a tone control of sorts, the higher the impedance the tighter the tone!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I know we all hear things differently, and thank god for that, otherwise the world would be a boring place. But I rarely record an acoustic without a tube preamp, my favorite being the Sebatron VMP. It just does something magic to the tone that I like. And I have have a lot of tube simulation plugs, but to me, they do not bring the magic I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the tone you're shooting for and what your ideal acoustic guitar tone is. Lately I've been recording acoustic guitar with a single U87ai and a UA LA610 pre/com. I'm not really driving the mic, pre or comp hard but they are imparting a tone that's working for my ear. And they aren't the only thing imparting a tone. My room has got 13 foot ceilings which bring a natural air to the mix that is controllable by the distance the mic is from the guitar top. I also use the multiple impedance controls on my LA610 as a tone control of sorts, the higher the impedance the tighter the tone!

As we've seen, different gear sounds different. So what you like could be tubes, or could be the specific preamps, maybe? or both... Hard to separate them. I'd like to hear your recordings with the Sebatron, have you posted any?

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

As we've seen, different gear sounds different. So what you like could be tubes, or could be the specific preamps, maybe? or both... Hard to separate them. I'd like to hear your recordings with the Sebatron, have you posted any?

Here's what I call a rock and roll acoustic sound with the Sebatron and a vintage J45.



As for is it tubes or individual preamps it could be a little of both. For tubes I have a ADL600, Manley Voxbox, Sebatron VMP4000e, LA610, Drawmer 1960, and a Blue Robbie. For solid state I have a BAE 1073MPF, Manley/Langevin DVC, Neve Portico 5012, and a Audient Mico

Here's the LA610 and the Neumann on an HD28 (the LA610 is also used with a U89 on the fiddle), and yes I know the vocals are S-ey (it's a demo)...

[rockabilly69]

And here's the LA610 with the J45 with the comp in the LA610 imparting it's tone...

[rockabilly69]

With all this discussion about preamps I think there's so many ways to skin a cat to get the tones we are searching for. Some guys hear like crystalline clear reproduction of acoustics with utmost accuracy especially fingerstyle which seems to lend itself to solid state preamps and high end ultra accurate microphones (ie Schoeps, Geffel,etc). Others like warm reproduction brought to the table by reproduction with preamps that bring out the best in dynamic or ribbon microphones. I like it somewhere in the middle with preamps that bring a sound to the table. It's funny how we all chase different things. But when thing I can say for sure is the first time I put a U87 microphone in front of an acoustic guitar I heard what I was chasing, it just took me awhile to find out the preamps I like with it. Sometimes I like clearer sounding acoustics, through solid state preamps, especially when I'm mixing them with dirty lapsteel or slide guitars.

Here's a Gibson J100 XTRA (maple body) into a Rode Classic II and modded Rode NTK in M/S into a solid state Langevin DVC....

With