#16
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Here's the Ensemble: https://www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble
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#17
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Very nice demo Doug, I was wondering if you might check out a pair of the M300's one day. As with most of these things the difference between them and the Schoepes is pretty subtle, at least to my ear.
I love my pair of M300's, they are at the perfect spot of price to performance for my budget.
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#18
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The only difference I hear is that the Gefells sound a little brighter than the Schoeps which is surprising given that the Gefell M300s usually sound darker than most other SDCs. Mine were certainly darker than the AKG 451s I used to own.
That said, the Gefells and the Schoeps both sound really fine. This thread has convinced me to give my Gefells another go round. |
#19
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#20
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The M300 is a more directionally affected mike regarding frequency response than the Mk41, getting brighter sounding when fairly off axis. A plus or minus factor depending on the circumstances.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#21
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#22
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Doug quick question if I may . I just set up and recorded (for a test and to go through it) my N 22's in the MS position as per your photo, one down one up . With the upper mic being the direct ( mid) mic. And the bottom being the side mic with the null of the figure 8 facing the guitar . As I stated I have never done an MS recording , so am a virtual newbie to it .
So first, do you adjust the mic pres to bring the S signal back up to equal to the M signal prior to recording ? or leave the pre amps aprox the same input level and just bring up the fader on the side track/s while mixing ? I found a significant difference in signal strength between the two such that with my pre. with 60 db gain and 48 v phantom power , the S channel had to be pegged to get the signal equal to the M at about 2/3 rd's . Second did you "decode" the MS track ? and if so do you use an MS decoder plugin, or just do the three track method ?
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1 Last edited by KevWind; 09-28-2018 at 10:30 AM. |
#23
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I just use the Voxengo free MS-Decoder plugin. Logic has one built-in as well, probably most DAWs do. That lets me keep things on a single stereo track which works well for my workflow - effects sends, other plugins, etc. Here's what my stereo track looks like with the relative levels (Mid is on the left/top, which is what the Voxengo decoder expects): MS_Levels.jpg With an encoder/decoder (like the Voxengo), you can go back and forth between MS and normal, so one way to get comfortable with the relative levels would be to take an existing non-MS track, and encode it into MS and look at the result, which should be similar to my screen snap.
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#24
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1 Last edited by KevWind; 09-29-2018 at 08:42 AM. |
#25
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And you have answered a very important question...the M300 "sound most like the guitar" That is something that is appealing to myself...to hear a recorded version of what I hear from my position playing the guitar. From your recorded examples I do like both. I personally hear quite a difference between the two...an Openness the Schoeps has. An appealing trait. However, for standing out in a mix, the Gefells reality might be more important. Have you ever Tried the Sanken Cu-55? Those are another microphone that I would love to hear. They have the ability to be closer miced without proximity. Unfortunately, finding recorded samples of these mics are far and few in between. |
#26
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#27
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By putting the Schoeps MK41 and Gefell M300 pairs in basically the same position, the differences between their frequency responses are noticeable. If the Gefells were moved back a bit (relative to the Schoeps), and levels matched, those differences would be less noticeable. At least that's what I heard when I did that with these same mics.
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#28
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affected by having another mike right up next to its capsule. Nevertheless I think the generalized characteristics of the mikes came through.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#29
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Yeah, that's always the challenge when comparing mics. Is it most useful to compare how they sound in the same location, or to optimize the placement of each mic to make them sound the same (or their best). Infinite possibilities, so I think all you can do is be clear about the experiment. This isn't "how schoeps and gefells sound", because move either of them an inch and the sound changes. It's just "here's how the two sound when placed as close together as possible", nothing more, nothing less. I did the other approach with the other two mics - that's "where I would place them" with no attempt to have them be in the same location, and we can hear that that sounds very different. But it sounds like you and Rick both think the Gefells have more proximity effect than Schoeps? The Schoeps are hyper's, and so should actually have more proximity effect than equivalent cardiods, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure I'm hearing a big difference wrt proximity, but I'll experiment some more. To my ear, the Schoeps and Gefells are very similar in sound, but it all depends on what "similar" means. At some point, it's splitting hairs. I could shift in my chair by an inch and the sound would change :-)
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#30
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The Schoeps MK41 capsule has a bass rolloff which is wider (starting at 200 Hz down -4dB at 50 Hz) than the Gefell M300 (starting at 100 Hz down -3dB at 50 Hz), but less than a Gefell M295 which is very wide (starting at 600 Hz down -8dB at 50 Hz). All of these mitigate the proximity effect by differing amounts. What has always impressed me is the linear off-axis response of Schoeps capsules. That's where the much of the "smoothness" comes from, particularly when using them in the the ORTF-like positioning you used in your above recordings. Schoeps MK41: https://schoeps.de/en/products/colet...ids/mk-41.html Gefell M300: http://www.microtechgefell.de/dmdocu...%20300_ENG.pdf Gefell M295: http://www.microtechgefell.de/dmdocu...94_295_ENG.pdf |