Francesco Sor, an Etude in Bm

[Wrighty]

Hi all

I have been working on this piece for a few weeks now having found the beautiful version of Julian Bream playing it in his home music room (the infamous one where all those amazing masterclasses took place)

His version was a revelation, so simple and understated and in many ways so moving - played in the latter years of his life and looking very wistful, it just takes me somewhere special.

Anyway, my focus here was to make sure the melody stood out cleanly and that the tone of the melody notes was warm and round (so almost all rest strokes) but I also wanted to vary the tone with my right hand, as has been advised by a few fellow forum members.

As I listen back now, there are still a few areas that make me wince as I hear some extraneous string noise or other, but this is where it’s at now.

As always, please feel free to offer feedback on how I can improve it.

Thanks all..

[Su_H.]

Very nice. Like I said before...you'll be playing advanced pieces in no time.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Su_H.

Very nice. Like I said before...you'll be playing advanced pieces in no time.

Thanks!

I’m trying that with Capricho Arabe, it’s quite a challenge:-)

[Gitfiddlemann]

Very nice Peter! I think it shows that you have a real fondness for this music.
(P.S: You may want to change the heading of this one though. You attributed the Etude to Fernando's tuba playing kid brother "Francesco". )

You're really cranking these out quickly. Have fun with Capricho. It's a beautiful piece, and a challenging one at that.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

As always, please feel free to offer feedback on how I can improve it.

At the risk of being constantly critical...

I think what you've done sounds nice. My primary comment is to work on your right hand technique.

If you listen to and watch the Bream version you mentioned, it is instructive on his right hand technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49x9Csv4KPk

Typical classical technique involves a different right hand position, with the right wrist "craned" so that the hand and wrist are not on the same plane coming from the elbow and the bend in the elbow is not at the edge of the guitar. (Instead, the edge of the guitar is typically against the underside of the forearm.) Raising the wrist like this and positioning the arm like this, changes the relative position of the fingers to the strings and allows for the basics of the rest stroke.

The rest stroke largely involves moving the entire finger from its large knuckle at the base of the finger. This allows considerable "power" in the stroke, when wanted. This, in turn, allows for greater range of dynamics, something you can hear in Bream's performance - some individual notes he's chosen to emphasize by playing them louder, in addition to overall changes in volume.

It might be that you are interested in the music, itself, rather than "classical guitar", particularly. That's fine too. I'm simply pointing out one of the differences between typical classical and steel string technique. It is that technique that goes along way to providing classical guitar sound, such as Bream's.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

At the risk of being constantly critical...

I think what you've done sounds nice. My primary comment is to work on your right hand technique.

If you listen to and watch the Bream version you mentioned, it is instructive on his right hand technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49x9Csv4KPk

Typical classical technique involves a different right hand position, with the right wrist "craned" so that the hand and wrist are not on the same plane coming from the elbow and the bend in the elbow is not at the edge of the guitar. (Instead, the edge of the guitar is typically against the underside of the forearm.) Raising the wrist like this and positioning the arm like this, changes the relative position of the fingers to the strings and allows for the basics of the rest stroke.

The rest stroke largely involves moving the entire finger from its large knuckle at the base of the finger. This allows considerable "power" in the stroke, when wanted. This, in turn, allows for greater range of dynamics, something you can hear in Bream's performance - some individual notes he's chosen to emphasize by playing them louder, in addition to overall changes in volume.

It might be that you are interested in the music, itself, rather than "classical guitar", particularly. That's fine too. I'm simply pointing out one of the differences between typical classical and steel string technique. It is that technique that goes along way to providing classical guitar sound, such as Bream's.

Thanks Charles - and please, criticism is fine!

If you don't mind I would like to explore the right hand point you make further. In my attempt to learn about optimum right hand position, most of what I have read has indicated that the very traditional "crooked" wrist position adopted by JB and also John Williams, is no longer considered optimal and is advised against as a potential cause of wrist problems. The current advice seems to recommend a straight line from elbow through hand and to the end of M finger, which is what I have tried to learn and practice.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this?

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by AndreF

Very nice Peter! I think it shows that you have a real fondness for this music.
(P.S: You may want to change the heading of this one though. You attributed the Etude to Fernando's tuba playing kid brother "Francesco". )

You're really cranking these out quickly. Have fun with Capricho. It's a beautiful piece, and a challenging one at that.

Thanks Andre, I love this music.

Apologies re the thread title - I will change the video but can't seem to alter the thread title. Thanks for pointing that out!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

If you don't mind I would like to explore the right hand point you make further. In my attempt to learn about optimum right hand position, most of what I have read has indicated that the very traditional "crooked" wrist position adopted by JB and also John Williams, is no longer considered optimal and is advised against as a potential cause of wrist problems. The current advice seems to recommend a straight line from elbow through hand and to the end of M finger, which is what I have tried to learn and practice.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this?

I learned to play long ago. At that time, the crooked wrist position was the method. I've never had any issues with it and have had no reason to change, so I can't really comment on a different method.

Maximum power/energy-transfer occurs when one strikes/plucks a string perpendicular to the long axis of the string. One way of accomplishing that is to keep the knuckles of the hand parallel to the strings. In "traditional" technique, the wrist is bent in two planes: the bend in one plane accomplishes that.

Striking the strings parallel to the string (i.e. along their length) will produce little volume and alter the tone produced. The closer the elbow is to the longitudinal centreline of the guitar, with no bend in the wrist, the closer the plucking fingers get to being parallel to the strings.

The "father" of modern guitar technique, and the wrist position, was Segovia. Historic lute players, particularly of the Renaissance, used what was called "thumb-under" technique that included a straight wrist. It used the hand in a very different way, mostly using only the thumb and two fingers of the plucking hand, often alternating thumb and first finger.

If "modern" players can get the sound they want from "modern" straight-wrist technique, I have no objection to it. I've never attempted any sort of comparison of sound produced between "traditional" vs. "modern" technique players. It might seem logical that if one wanted a "traditional" sound, one would likely need to adopt a "traditional" technique. Given the subjective nature of preference, one can choose whichever sound one prefers, and the technique that produces it.

My suggestion is to undertake a study of the issue yourself. Listen to/watch a bunch of people playing. Identify those who's sound you like and observe what right hand technique they are using.

Edit: One of the "modern" players that I like espouses the "modern" technique in her video at about 20 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0IbuzBJqsE

[TBman]

Nice job Peter!

You're inspiring me to glance at my classical,

But to play it properly would mean learning to use finger picks, ugh.

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by TBman

Nice job Peter!

You're inspiring me to glance at my classical,

But to play it properly would mean learning to use finger picks, ugh.

Thanks!

Grow your nails, you’d be surprised how much shorter my nails are now than when I played steel..

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I learned to play long ago. At that time, the crooked wrist position was the method. I've never had any issues with it and have had no reason to change, so I can't really comment on a different method.



Maximum power/energy-transfer occurs when one strikes/plucks a string perpendicular to the long axis of the string. One way of accomplishing that is to keep the knuckles of the hand parallel to the strings. In "traditional" technique, the wrist is bent in two planes: the bend in one plane accomplishes that.



Striking the strings parallel to the string (i.e. along their length) will produce little volume and alter the tone produced. The closer the elbow is to the longitudinal centreline of the guitar, with no bend in the wrist, the closer the plucking fingers get to being parallel to the strings.



The "father" of modern guitar technique, and the wrist position, was Segovia. Historic lute players, particularly of the Renaissance, used what was called "thumb-under" technique that included a straight wrist. It used the hand in a very different way, mostly using only the thumb and two fingers of the plucking hand, often alternating thumb and first finger.



If "modern" players can get the sound they want from "modern" straight-wrist technique, I have no objection to it. I've never attempted any sort of comparison of sound produced between "traditional" vs. "modern" technique players. It might seem logical that if one wanted a "traditional" sound, one would likely need to adopt a "traditional" technique. Given the subjective nature of preference, one can choose whichever sound one prefers, and the technique that produces it.



My suggestion is to undertake a study of the issue yourself. Listen to/watch a bunch of people playing. Identify those who's sound you like and observe what right hand technique they are using.



Edit: One of the "modern" players that I like espouses the "modern" technique in her video at about 20 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0IbuzBJqsE

Thanks Charles, it’s a bit of a minefield..

I will keep looking into it, and also experiment a little today. One player I listen to a lot is Tavi Jinariu, who espouses a sort of semi wrist crane, somewhere between the two positions.

Another player whose tone is something I aspire to is Chapdelaine, who seems to play with a fairly straight wrist but whose fingers do strike the strings towards the perpendicular.

[jonnymosco]

That was played really beautifully.

Regarding the bent wrist discussion, outlined well by Charles, you may find this video I made useful.

The important thing is to have a gap between the soundboard and your forearm to enable you to adjust the angle of attack of your fingers to make possible a variety of tones and also to promote finger movement starting at the big knuckle. As mentioned in the video, a bent wrist will restrict finger movement and cause friction in the carpel tunnel and long-term damage.

Old school players seemed to do a lot of wrist bending, but you won't see it much today. To create a stroke pushing the string in towards the soundhole, which is the action of the rest stroke giving a fuller tone (also possible with the free stroke) you do need the hand raised, but don't need to bend the wrist.

The history of RH technique and angles is fascinating - look at Ida Presti's right hand, angled to make playing off the right edge of the nail possible and all about tone production at the detriment of physical ease (a technique still promoted in some parts of the world). There is also Carlevaro's approach which is contrasting.

Good luck.

Jonny

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by jonnymosco

That was played really beautifully.

Regarding the bent wrist discussion, outlined well by Charles, you may find this video I made useful.

The important thing is to have a gap between the soundboard and your forearm to enable you to adjust the angle of attack of your fingers to make possible a variety of tones and also to promote finger movement starting at the big knuckle. As mentioned in the video, a bent wrist will restrict finger movement and cause friction in the carpel tunnel and long-term damage.

Old school players seemed to do a lot of wrist bending, but you won't see it much today. To create a stroke pushing the string in towards the soundhole, which is the action of the rest stroke giving a fuller tone (also possible with the free stroke) you do need the hand raised, but don't need to bend the wrist.

The history of RH technique and angles is fascinating - look at Ida Presti's right hand, angled to make playing off the right edge of the nail possible and all about tone production at the detriment of physical ease (a technique still promoted in some parts of the world). There is also Carlevaro's approach which is contrasting.

Good luck.

Jonny

Thanks Jonny - very helpful video (I have watched many of yours previously)

I had a good suggestion over on Delcamp from Stepeh Kenyon, who said to move the neck angle higher to allow a better finger placement - that certainly helps.

[Wrighty]

Hi all

Following on from the various discussions and advice on right hand position, I have made some changes to try to effect a slightly more perpendicular right hand position. I did this by moving the neck of the guitar up slightly and moving my right arm up the bout a little.

I would welcome any thoughts or feedback from those who were kind enough to comment earlier.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Hi Peter,
I like that hand position relative to the strings. Another good thing is that you're keeping the top of your hand pretty still. Also very helpful.
One thing that I see, and that you might want to consider, is to raise the wrist a bit to give your hand more of a slight arch over the strings. It's hard to tell from the front but it looks like your wrist is below the flat part of the hand.
Raising the hand a bit will help you pluck the strings more easily from your knuckle joints, rather than the middle ones. It will add a lot of controlled power and roundness to your stroke and tone production. It will also minimize the tendency to bounce when playing something faster.
Playing steel strings doesn't require us to do that at all, or nearly as much, but it's something to keep in mind when playing nylon, even if it feels awkward at first.
Practicing with a mirror helps, as well as using simple arpeggios, so that you can just focus on the right hand.
Lastly, it's not just you. It's something that I have to pay attention to constantly. You're not alone!