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  #106  
Old 10-25-2020, 11:15 AM
Mattface Mattface is offline
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Originally Posted by rllink View Post
While it hasn't been said outright, there seems to be an undertone in this thread that somehow there is some price gouging going on with U.S. guitars. I think the point here is that we are talking about guitars. No one is forced to buy an expensive boutique guitar if they don't want to spend that kind of money.
Yes AND there are so many great affordable options, none of us really need feel bad about not being able to afford a boutique guitar. I regard having one good guitar as a necessity, but more than one as a luxury. I highly doubt anyone here complaining about the prices of boutique guitars is lacking at least one good guitar. If you can afford $1,000 for a guitar, but not $10,000, I can't muster much sympathy for your plight. If you struggle to afford $200, I doubt you are even remotely concerned with how much boutique guitars cost. Seriously folks there ARE plenty of people who can't afford even a cheap guitar, how do you think it looks to them you see guys with 6 guitars complaning about about the price of $10,000+ guitars. If you are even remotely worried about the price of a $10,000+ guitar, Chances are you have more guitars (and money) than you need. Maybe you should be grateful for what you have.

For my part, instead of worrying about the prices of high falutin' guitars I choose to focus on what is attainable, and I feel quite fortunate to have so many great guitars to choose from. I only own one guitar, and it's a great guitar, so I feel super fortunate to be able to consider buying a second one.

Last edited by Mattface; 10-25-2020 at 11:49 AM.
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  #107  
Old 10-25-2020, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattface View Post
Yes AND there are so many great affordable options, none of us really need feel bad about not being able to afford a boutique guitar. I regard having one good guitar as a necessity, but more than one as a luxury. I highly doubt anyone here complaining about the prices of boutique guitars is lacking at least one good guitar. If you can afford $1,000 for a guitar, but not $10,000, I can't muster much sympathy for your plight. If you struggle to afford $200, I doubt you are even remotely concerned with how much boutique guitars cost. Seriously folks there ARE plenty of people who can't afford even a cheap guitar, how do you think it looks to them you see guys with 6 guitars complaning about about the price of $10,000+ guitars. If you are even remotely worried about the price of a $10,000+ guitar, Chances are you have more guitars (and money) than you need. Maybe you should be grateful for what you have.

For my part, instead of worrying about the prices of high falutin' guitars I choose to focus on what is attainable, and I feel quite fortunate to have so many great guitars to choose from. I only own one guitar, and it's a great guitar, so I feel super fortunate to be able to consider buying a second one.
FWIW, I think this is a very healthy outlook.
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  #108  
Old 10-25-2020, 12:56 PM
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If you are the least bit concerned about the price of boutique guitars, then may I suggest that you (like me) consider giving more of your extraordinary income away to those less fortunate, who could benefit from it? I have (and will continue to) done so; I invite you to join me. (Not sure of the grammar, but you get my drift.)
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  #109  
Old 10-25-2020, 06:58 PM
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Having read through most (though admittedly not all) of this thread, I am a bit struck by how few folks have brought up the artistry and craftsmanship position (a few people have).

One of the reasons that I'm currently commissioning a hand built guitar by an individual luthier is because I want to support craftsmanship and artistry. I don't need another guitar, and I certainly don't need to be spending as much money as I am. But I like that there are individual luthiers out there making great guitars. And I think that they should be able to make a living at it... at least the good ones should. And I want to support that. Is there some sense of exclusivity or status... maybe. But I also think that the world is better for having craftspeople and small shops in it.

There's value in craftsmanship. There's value in artistry. There's value in experience.

How much is Richard Hoover's 45 years of experience worth, or Mike Millard's or Jim Olson's? Mastery and experience deserve to be rewarded and respected... to whatever extent that the market will bear. Through their experience and the reputations they've built for themselves, they've earned the positions that allow them to push the limits of the market. These are people at the very top of their professions.
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  #110  
Old 10-25-2020, 07:05 PM
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Good point, Warfrat. I love the craftsmanship of my boutique builds as well as the tone. For example: one of the reasons I pulled the trigger on my Froggy was Michael Millard’s impending retirement - I wanted to own a piece of his craftsmanship.

I’m a pretty good player, but by no means great. A lot of you guys probably sound better on a Yamaha or Eastman than I do on a Froggy or Santa Cruz. I’m in a position where I can blow that kind of money on a guitar, and it makes me happy, so I do. A bonus is I get to support some truly great craftsmen. When you build a limited number of guitars you only need a limited number of consumers.
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  #111  
Old 10-25-2020, 07:07 PM
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When one can go out to buy a used Collings D1/D2H or Bourgeois Country Boy for under $3K, or a used Martin D-18 for under $2k, or a used D/OM-15 for under $1k, life is good. I can't worry about $6-20K guitars, because I'll never be able to afford one, nor do I need/want one. I am way over my skis with my D1T and my Walker. With my lack of talent, I barely deserve my D15 12 fretter.

Any of you guys who own super guitars: Henderson, Ryan, Froggy, etc., I am happy for you.
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  #112  
Old 10-25-2020, 08:13 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
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Originally Posted by 89bruin View Post
I suppose one of the benefits of relatively free societies is that we each get to decide how to spend our “disposable” income. In my case being realistic about my ability is the best protection for my wallet - I generally stop looking when instruments break the $2000 point and I won’t even pick up something over $3000.
This is me exactly.

Though in a thread where I said just this a while back, one of the builders who posts here did respond by asking me to go please pick up and try one of his guitars if I came across one anyways, even though it would be out of this price range.
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  #113  
Old 10-25-2020, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89bruin View Post
I suppose one of the benefits of relatively free societies is that we each get to decide how to spend our “disposable” income. In my case being realistic about my ability is the best protection for my wallet - I generally stop looking when instruments break the $2000 point and I won’t even pick up something over $3000.
Man, if I could only own instruments that my talent deserved I’d still be playing a kazoo.
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  #114  
Old 10-26-2020, 07:24 AM
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Man, if I could only own instruments that my talent deserved I’d still be playing a kazoo.
Same here.
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  #115  
Old 10-26-2020, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post

How much is Richard Hoover's 45 years of experience worth, or Mike Millard's or Jim Olson's? Mastery and experience deserve to be rewarded and respected... to whatever extent that the market will bear. Through their experience and the reputations they've built for themselves, they've earned the positions that allow them to push the limits of the market. These are people at the very top of their professions.

I think it's great to recognize and support the craftsmanship of Hoover, Millard, Goodall, and the like–craftsmanship that's been honed over a lifetime.

Still doesn't quite answer my original question: why, for standard models that have been around for many years, have prices soared so dramatically?

Is Hoover's D/PW twice as good as the one he built 15 years ago? If not, then why does it cost twice as much?
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  #116  
Old 10-26-2020, 07:38 AM
Mattface Mattface is offline
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Originally Posted by hamburg325 View Post
I think it's great to recognize and support the craftsmanship of Hoover, Millard, Goodall, and the like–craftsmanship that's been honed over a lifetime.

Still doesn't quite answer my original question: why, for standard models that have been around for many years, have prices soared so dramatically?

Is Hoover's D/PW twice as good as the one he built 15 years ago? If not, then why does it cost twice as much?
When you are one guy there are only so many guitars you can make in a year. Even hiring more people to help you there comes a point where you can't make more without the quality suffering. Of course some folks might choose to do whatever it takes to increase production, but that does not work for everyone. Some people would rather produce a few guitars that are the best thing they can make, and they may have no interest in "getting bigger.

It's not just with guitars, some people don't want their life's work turned into "production". Maybe they are happy making guitars at a pace that feels manageable. A lot of the best luthiers have long waiting lists, but one of the ways to slow down demand is to raise the price. So if they can't make enough guitars to meet demand, they may raise the price until demand reaches something manageable.
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  #117  
Old 10-26-2020, 07:51 AM
J Patrick J Patrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburg325 View Post
I think it's great to recognize and support the craftsmanship of Hoover, Millard, Goodall, and the like–craftsmanship that's been honed over a lifetime.

Still doesn't quite answer my original question: why, for standard models that have been around for many years, have prices soared so dramatically?

Is Hoover's D/PW twice as good as the one he built 15 years ago? If not, then why does it cost twice as much?
...you really need to ask Richard Hoover to get an answer to this question...no one here knows the details of his business operation...how much he pays his employees...what his material costs are...what his yearly operating costs are....you know....the things that every successful business has to figure in when setting their price structure...

....one thing is for sure....coastal California is a very expensive place to live and do business....it could easily take twice the income to live comfortably there then it does in many other parts of the country...has the cost of living doubled there in the last twenty years??...I wouldn’t be surprised....but like I said...only Mr Hoover himself can answer your question accurately...
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  #118  
Old 10-26-2020, 08:10 AM
MWB5007 MWB5007 is offline
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.... Using the assumption that the price has DOUBLED in the past 15 years, more than half of that can be attributed not to price increase but to the devaluation of money (inflation) even with the benign CPI rates created by quantitative easing, One can only guess at the actual inflation of raw materials which are increasingly regulated (CITES) and progressively more rare..
Additionally, the past 15 years have seen above nominal CPI increases in wage rates on the coasts along with steeply accelerated medical insurance costs. (I presume craftsman of this nature receive health care benefits.)

Actual "market conditions" contributing to "greatly increased pricing" are kind of overstated in this thread IMHO.

Yes, instruments are more expensive while imported goods like tech and textiles have shown little inflation - but if you used a "basket of goods" pricing approach to the inflating costs of say food or higher education then guitars - even boutique guitars - are cheaper using dollar adjusted numbers.

Sorry to run so contra to the assumptions made to this point but hey, reality should play at least a partial role.
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  #119  
Old 10-26-2020, 08:24 AM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
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If your worried about never being able to buy a decent guitar reasonably ,
just give it a bit of time to come down out of the clouds.
I know the used market will lighten up after our current situation
- like in April or May - wouldn't get to worried about finding the one-
believe me on this - The one will find you when you are ready !
I know what I'm talking about !




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  #120  
Old 10-26-2020, 09:45 AM
LakewoodM32Fan LakewoodM32Fan is offline
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As J Patrick wrote, in addition to all those other factors others have indicated, Santa Cruz (and surrounding area) is indeed a very expensive area in which to live.

https://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_l...nia/santa_cruz

Median house price $900K. Cost of living index 193.4 (if USA baseline is 100, and California average is 149.9). And a lot of this has risen in the last 20-30 years. Even nearby Salinas, which (and I grew up in the central valley in the 80s) was not considered a "posh" place to live, very workmanlike city. Median house price now nearly $500K.

I moved to SoCal in the 1990s. What I paid in rent (because median housing in my area is higher Santa Cruz pricing) has gone from $1250 for a 2BR/2BA to $2800. And I can tell you over those 25+ years, the housing is not over 2X better if we're going to use the "if something costs 2X as much it must be 2X as good" rationale. The cost of living and doing business in CA has risen considerably, so it has an impact on his prices.

Do the math: calculate average cost SCGC charges to dealers (hint, industry standards are around 55-60% of the advertised price, so an $8K guitar was likely sold to the dealer for around $5K), multiply that by the number of guitars they make annually (between 500-700). Then account for everything that goes into running a business: materials costs, building costs, equipment costs, insurance, advertising, sponsorship, utilities, consultants/legal, shipping, travel (gotta go to the national shows and represent).

Now factor that they employ about two dozen people, and in addition to their salaries, add on health plan benefits and likely some sort of retirement contribution match (which can easily add 25% on top of salary, so paying someone $60K actually costs the company more like $75K)...and you'll see that not only is Mr. Hoover not making a king's ransom...he's likely just treating him employees well enough to make a decent living in one of the more expensive regions in the country.
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