Dizzying prices

[mercy]

Thanking you all for highlighting the RIDICULOUS pricing of some builders. I agree but the rule of supply and demand still rule. If some people are willing to pay then the rest of us that cant wont be buying those brands. I can tell you the names of builders that have a base price of $2000. To add a different perspective, materials are easily had for under 500. If you want more expensive wood like Coco then easily under 1000.

[hamburg325]

https://reverb.com/item/17599842-san...pre-war-custom

Case in point. This is a pretty shocking price for a lovely, but very 'plain Jane' guitar.

One could likely get a gorgeous, pearl-trimmed, new Martin D-45 for less.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Supply and demand. If these were "outrageous" prices, no one would buy them, and the prices would have to come down. But they aren't. And that's not because guitar builders are not market-savvy.

There isn't a "hole in the market" for guitars in the lower price range. Look at this screencap I just took of Guitar Center's site alone:

That's just for models, not numbers of each model in stock. And you better believe they'll have way more stock of a sub $2K model than they will of a $5K+ model. But for simplicity's sake, let's tally just the models: that's 2,640 models 2K and under, 589 between 2K-7.5K. No market hole there.

And again, this doesn't include Sam Ash, Sweetwater, etc.

The real issue being discussed is: people want a Santa Cruz or a Bourgeois or a Collings at 2K-3K.

Well, I'd love a Jaguar at the price I would pay for a Honda. But it's Jaguar's right to price their models at what they believe their product is worth. If the market isn't there, their business will suffer. If it is, what right do I have to insist they sell their XJ at Accord prices? That's just not the way the world works, not in guitars, cars, or essentially any other consumer good.

[edcmat-l1]

People spend dumb money on stuff all the time. Cars, clothes, houses, etc. Guitars are just another item.

That being said the reverb link above is ridiculous. All you're paying for it the name. It's not even attractive IMHO of course.

[hamburg325]

Originally Posted by edcmat-l1

People spend dumb money on stuff all the time. Cars, clothes, houses, etc. Guitars are just another item.

That being said the reverb link above is ridiculous. All you're paying for it the name. It's not even attractive IMHO of course.

Froggy Bottom has a certain mystique and they build nice guitars. Although, the M Deluxe I owned had sloppy glue spills on the inside and needed a fret job after only 2 years.

But over 7 big ones for a Santa Cruz DPW qualifies as outrageous.

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Martin, Gibson, Taylor and Guild are building their lower end guitars overseas.

You sure about that?

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by hamburg325

https://reverb.com/item/17599842-san...pre-war-custom

Case in point. This is a pretty shocking price for a lovely, but very 'plain Jane' guitar.

One could likely get a gorgeous, pearl-trimmed, new Martin D-45 for less.

I'm not going to justify their asking price. But I will say calling this "plain Jane" overlooks quite a few things.

1. Adirondack top (often an upcharge for many makers)
2. Adirondack bracing (same)
3. Hot hide glue (same, look at Martin's upcharge for HHG in their custom builder, I believe it's a grand)
4. BRW peghead veneer (yeah it's not much wood, but BRW upcharge is still a thing)

If you start with SCGC's "normal" starting price around 5K, those 4 will get it close to the 7K they're asking for.

Personally speaking, I'd rather have the "extras" going towards tone than pearl-trim.

[Rev Roy]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

Supply and demand. If these were "outrageous" prices, no one would buy them, and the prices would have to come down. But they aren't. And that's not because guitar builders are not market-savvy.

The real issue being discussed is: people want a Santa Cruz or a Bourgeois or a Collings at 2K-3K...

Well, I'd love a Jaguar at the price I would pay for a Honda. But it's Jaguar's right to price their models at what they believe their product is worth. If the market isn't there, their business will suffer. If it is, what right do I have to insist they sell their XJ at Accord prices? That's just not the way the world works, not in guitars, cars, or essentially any other consumer good.

Yep...what he said. /\ /\ /\

[Br1ck]

The only thing problematic with prices is when you can't afford them. I can see if you live in a more realistic area, you'd think $13k is a lot, But if you go to NYC, Houston, LA or SF, there are many folks to whom that is pocket change. Emblematic of the income gap, it nevertheless is a reality, and if you have reached the point where your product can fetch these prices, you charge them. It's the American way.

Like many products, the more you pay, the less you get for it. What are you getting for the double you are paying, say a Froggie over a Martin Authentic? One thing is for certain, as soon as you lay down that kind of cash, you are going to like it, and if you think you are immune from a bit of self justification, I've got a bridge to sell you.

You are buying, along with a fine guitar, a measure of exclusivity, and please don't delude yourself that the pride of ownership is meaningless. This is not to say that the Picasso painting you just bought isn't a great work of art, but market forces are in play. I have played quite a few very nice guitars, and if I really wanted them, I could find a way. But once you can buy a D 18 you have gotten most of what you are going to get. Buy a D18 Authentic and you are really in the stratosphere. An authentic is really not that much money, an amount that opens up buying an older guitar, and that is very subjective.

That we are in a unique time is certainly true, but I wouldn't count on declining prices once people keep buying these guitars. Habits are being formed. I have now been having my groceries delivered since March. For the reasonable cost, the convenience is worth it to me. I doubt I'll go back.

[MWB5007]

I have an all mahogany Santa Cruz Don Edwards that retails for over $7k ..... admittedly pricey and on target for the purposes of this discussion.

OTOH I have the opportunity to play two pre-war (30' - 40's) Martin 00-17s. These were entry level guitars when they were built and both the guitars I have access to sound wonderful but are, by the standards of "used modern" guitars on this forum "player" grade without question. Either of these two guitars are valued above the price a used Don Edwards in mint condition.

If you did not fancy yourself a knowledgable guitar aficionado and were asked to chose the costliest guitar there is little doubt that almost everyone would choose the Don Edwards - and for good reason. By virtually every physical metric the Don Edwards is a superior instrument - better raw materials, better craftsmanship, better appointments, better case, far more attractive ...... and a stable instrument whose physical "playability" is far, far out of the reach of an entry level early 20th century Martin.

So there is the mystique .... And of course, as I stated, the Martins sound wonderful, however not more wonderful than the Santa Cruz which is to say that they are all three tonally superior to anything one generally encounters in a small bodied mahogany guitar; although it is more "surprising" that the tone and volume of the Martins issue from what is obviously a more pedestrian build, the Santa Cruz being clearly "boutique" (of exceptional quality) even to the uninitiated

I am not questioning the wisdom of the market here, only reacting to statements like, "for that price you could get a pre-war Martin" - and by no means am I dissing 1940's Martin, they can be magical; however, if any guitar pricing is a supply vs demand issue it is very arguably the vintage Martin and Gibsons who owe their considerable.
values almost entirely to rarity, legend - and in the strangest of possible ways, the physical depreciation of the instrument itself.... (although some people call it history.... all that history, it IS remarkable and yet neither physical nor tonal).
$.02 worth of perspective

[M Sarad]

Fran Guidry paid 4500 for his Walker OM. Its worth about 26,000 in the used market.

Kim quoted me 11k for a Brazilian OM 28 a dozen years ago. Then he said the price would go up when the guitar was ready due to circumstances beyond his control, in other words, flippers who were getting them and reselling.
I passed on that.

[hifivic]

This is a current quote;

Hi Victor – thank you for contacting us, I am happy to help. Here is a breakdown of the retail pricing on this custom OM model:



OM Custom - $7,475

German Spruce top

Cocobolo back & sides - $1,400

Adirondack scalloped bracing

Hot hide Glue construction

Ivoroid fully bound body, fretboard and headstock

Abalone Pearl multi-ring rosette - $300

Ebony Fretboard & bridge

Mahogany V shaped neck with volute

Ebony headstock overlay

Black/ Ivoroid full purflings

Nickel Gold Pearl logo

Tortoise pickguard

Ivoroid heelcap

Thin Black back strip

Tail wedge - $400 (no charge for the tail strip_

Bone nut and saddle

Bone pins with red dots

1 3/4″ nut width

24.75″ short scale length

2 1/4″ saddle spacing

Original deluxe Ameritage hardshell case



Retail price - $9,175



Do let me know if I can answer any additional questions for you, or connect you with a dealer who can order this custom guitar on your behalf.



Thanks and best,

Carolyn



Carolyn Sills

Santa Cruz Guitar Company

[LakewoodM32Fan]

That's telling Victor. It seems SCGC has started including Adi bracing and HHG in their "standard specs" and thus the built in higher starting price (again, using Martin's Custom Configuring Page those are 1K+ upgrades). And most of their competitors, like Collings, still sell with standard spruce bracing and regular glue for considerably less. It's an interesting tactic that SCGC has employed, because it seems they won't build one without those "add-ons"?

[TJNies]

Originally Posted by hamburg325

https://reverb.com/item/36477796-fro...-german-spruce

Not to pick on Froggy Bottom (nor Eddie's Guitars--a first-rate dealer), but it's a little surprising how prices have so steeply escalated for non-Brazilian guitars from mid-sized (as opposed to true boutique) builders. The guitar pictured above is doubtless wonderful in every way, but is it really a $13K instrument?

Not defending Froggy, but Guatemalan RW isn't inexpensive (that guitar's woods are pretty nice). I suspect the German top add a few dollars as well.
I know Millard raised prices across the board for 2020, by 20%.

FB had a model K selling in-house towards the end of 2019, priced less than $8k (I forget the exact amount). I was quite interested, but since I had never played a Frog, I was concerned maybe it wouldn't be my cup o'tea. MM refused any sort of return option. I saw that the guitar still hasn't sold, but is priced over $11k now.

[Jwills57]

I think with guitars that are orbiting this price range, say $5,000-$6,000 and up, you are not only paying for the actual instrument but also for the vision that went into its construction. These individual and small shop makers have invested quite often an entire productive lifetime in perfecting their instruments. Maybe that's worth something to the buyer, in which case he/she will plunk down the money for the instrument or maybe it's not, in which he/she will walk away and find something less expensive. I'm not talking about the quality differences between less expensive and more expensive guitars, because I have played examples of less expensive instruments that were incredible and examples of more expensive instruments that were just so so. I'm an abstract painter when I'm not playing guitar, and I like to think that my paintings are of similar quality to other artists whose work is selling for 10-15 times what my work is selling for. But I have not developed the ambience, the cache around my art that other folks have, who have been at it for a lot longer and a lot more intensely that have I. That's just the way it is. I say more power to them.