Help!=Recording Microphones

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

I would have to respectfully disagree with this statement. A Set of wonderful (expensive) mics in a lousy sounding space will just capture the lousy sound. There are some ways around this using mic placement but I would rather have a set of good mics in a fantastic sounding room, then great mics in a "bad" room.

You're right, but I also understand the OP's point. He's just starting out and he has to start somewhere. If all I can afford at the moment is mics or room treatment, I'm going to buy the mics because the room treatment does me no good if I don't have mics.

That said, I'd strongly encourage the OP to make room treatment #2 on his list. It's not enough to have a great mic. As Mbroady said, a great mic in a bad room isn't going to sound so great. Also, room treatment isn't egg cartons or blankets hanging on the walls. There's a science to room treatment and it really does make a huge difference. Steer clear of the foam products; they offer minimal improvement. I used Real Traps for my project studio and they were very helpful in helping me get sorted.

Good luck.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

I'm going to post this, not because I necessarily agree with it but because it shows that engineers all have different and sometimes wildly different opinions on how to record things...

'There is nothing I find more annoying than two mics on an acoustic guitar.
I find it baffling as to why anyone would want to put two mics on a mono
source point that isn't fully stationary, especially for the stated goal of a
"stereo" guitar.

Two microphones in close proximity to a rather compact collection point for
stereo capture makes absolutely no sense..."

From page 208 of Mixerman's latest book, "Zen and the Art of Recording". (Mixerman is the best-selling author of three books about music production and a pro audio blog etc. etc. He's been recording, mixing and producing since 1992 and his discography includes Foreigner, Amy Grant, Ben Harper, Pharcyde etc. etc.. )

It's a big world out there... and sometimes it seems that hardly anyone arrives at the same point the same way

That makes perfect sense, but only if the listener is one-eared.

Although many instruments might be considered mono sources, the sound generated from different areas of an acoustic instrument can, and do, vary greatly. What we try to accomplish with stereo miking is to re-create the same diffuse sound field that we would hear as a listener. The resultant effect can be manipulated using all the usual techniques ranging from mic selection and placement all the way through the manipulation of resulting wav files in a DAW.

What we hear is often as much a result of WHERE (the acoustic environment) we are playing as much as WHAT we are playing. To not consider the ramifications of what happens to an instrument's sound between the point where it is created and where it enters microphone(s) is treading a rather elitist path.

Anyone making the statement that a guitar can only be considered as a mono source must be walking around with a finger stuck in one ear. (IMHO)

[DesolationAngel]

To the OP; You might be one of the lucky ones... you'll find a mic, a guitar, a room and a way of recording that just works for you and your music every time. But, for me, the project studio stuff is like guitars; there's always another one that sounds good, there's always another vibe, there's always another pathway to explore, more things to learn... But sometimes joy comes from simplicity and one of my favourite recordings was me, in my bedroom, with an Apogee Mic, plugged into my laptop, playing a hundred year old parlour guitar... no preamps, no plug ins, no multiple mics. Either route you take, like my old boss used to say, 'the journey is the reward'.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

There is no panning, no channel separation (unless I'm entirely missing what you mean by channel separation). Both tracks are centre panned. If I sum that track to mono it sounds exactly the same, with the same change in tonality.

Maybe I'm not following?

Sorry, did not catch the sequence of what you were doing. The bass was increased, the high end reduced. The sound might sit in certain mixes with other instruments better. Not a good sound sitting by itself though.

[DesolationAngel]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Anyone making the statement that a guitar can only be considered as a mono source must be walking around with a finger stuck in one ear. (IMHO)

It doesn't seem to have impacted his music industry or writing career... Agree with it or not, that's what he does for a living, it can't be discounted out of hand. But, as I said, it all depends on where you're coming from. He's not recording solo, unaccompanied, acoustic guitar work. He's making records that involve mixing guitars, pianos, drums, bass, voices, strings, keys, you name it. That can involve an entirely different set of criteria for producing a 'glued' mix (although it's amazing how many engineers would love to be able to record a band with just one or two mics). The acoustic guitar section of the book is 4 pages out of 300...

[DesolationAngel]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Not a good sound sitting by itself though.

Wasn't meant to be...

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by jim1960

You're right, but I also understand the OP's point. He's just starting out and he has to start somewhere. If all I can afford at the moment is mics or room treatment, I'm going to buy the mics because the room treatment does me no good if I don't have mics.

That said, I'd strongly encourage the OP to make room treatment #2 on his list. It's not enough to have a great mic. As Mbroady said, a great mic in a bad room isn't going to sound so great. Also, room treatment isn't egg cartons or blankets hanging on the walls. There's a science to room treatment and it really does make a huge difference. Steer clear of the foam products; they offer minimal improvement. I used Real Traps for my project studio and they were very helpful in helping me get sorted.

Good luck.

Thank you, I am going to look into Realtraps and take it a bit more seriously. So many people keep on mentioning the importance of treatment..there must be something to it. I am just a home recordest, who likes great sound. And great sound inspires. Bad sound styfles my creativity. However I will be very limited to the amount of room treatment I can do. My recording area is limited to the living room, as My mother, who is 92, is bed ridden...and basically I need to watch her 24/7. Luckily for myself, guitar, voice, music has come back to me with great passion....and Playing and recording is something that I can do while watching my mother.
That is why for now, I have been experimenting with closer micing...to help take the room out of the equation as much. Plus..my knowledge is so little at this point, that further distance micing, and room sound is out of my league.
Funny story, back in the mid seventies...when I was a bit more serious about recording I converted a garage to an additional room for the house...and then hung Egg cartons all over the wall. That was a lot of egg cartons! At that time, we did not do it for room treatment...it was so it would dampen the sound and keep the neighbors happy. It did work, and I do believe it also made the room somewhat flatter as well.
At that time, all I had was a Neumann U87(idiot for selling it!) and a four tract recorder and...something that was a bit unusual..a Chamberlain. For those of you who are familiar with Melotrons...a Chamberlain was the first inventor of the Symphonic tape keyboard machines. It added a piece of heaven to each recording..guitars, vocals and Chamberlain. Lots of fun in those days. Now the fun is coming back.

[dragonfly66]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

... At the risk of repeating myself and others, the key to capturing those beautiful sounds is mic placement, room acoustics, mixing, and many, many, many hours of experimentation. Time spent pouring over mic specs, etc, or even trying different mics, is educational, but unless you choose some totally inappropriate mic, it won't be the mic that makes the difference in your recordings, it will be what you learn to do with it, which usually takes time, unfortunately.

I checked out this thread because I am looking to do some recordings and was fretting about mics. I have a bunch of cheap CAD and MXL mics, a Rode NTK, and a couple of relatively low-cost Cascade ribbon mics. I was set on finding a really nice expensive mic, but during my research this concept of, mic placement and room acoustics being more important than the mic, kept coming up and so I've stopped looking for another mic and have started experimenting with the mics I have. I am also treating my room with the Auralex foam.

It is good to keep hearing this message over and over again, because it is true. It is like telling a new guitarist, who seems stuck on something that seems impossible, that if you just keep practicing you will get it. You don't know that it is true until you've done it.

In researching techniques for stereo recording I looked at the spacing technique and many say that you need a matched pair and the placement needs to be just right. Well I don't have a matched pair of anything or even two of anything, plus it seemed like you needed to be really accurate in the mic placement and where you stand to play the guitar. So I came upon the Mid-Side method which I thought was pretty cool to create some space without a matched pair of mics or the stress of getting spacing and the artist in the right place. Here is a video that convinced me this would work, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiZFtN1xm-U

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thank you, I am going to look into Realtraps and take it a bit more seriously. So many people keep on mentioning the importance of treatment..there must be something to it. I am just a home recordest, who likes great sound. And great sound inspires. Bad sound styfles my creativity. However I will be very limited to the amount of room treatment I can do. My recording area is limited to the living room, as My mother, who is 92, is bed ridden...and basically I need to watch her 24/7. Luckily for myself, guitar, voice, music has come back to me with great passion....and Playing and recording is something that I can do while watching my mother.
That is why for now, I have been experimenting with closer micing...to help take the room out of the equation as much. Plus..my knowledge is so little at this point, that further distance micing, and room sound is out of my league.
Funny story, back in the mid seventies...when I was a bit more serious about recording I converted a garage to an additional room for the house...and then hung Egg cartons all over the wall. That was a lot of egg cartons! At that time, we did not do it for room treatment...it was so it would dampen the sound and keep the neighbors happy. It did work, and I do believe it also made the room somewhat flatter as well.
At that time, all I had was a Neumann U87(idiot for selling it!) and a four tract recorder and...something that was a bit unusual..a Chamberlain. For those of you who are familiar with Melotrons...a Chamberlain was the first inventor of the Symphonic tape keyboard machines. It added a piece of heaven to each recording..guitars, vocals and Chamberlain. Lots of fun in those days. Now the fun is coming back.

First, sorry to hear your mother isn't feeling so great.
Second, it sounds like you already have some understanding of recording so you're ahead of many in that regard.

My project studio isn't very big, only about 10x10. I sent Real Traps the dimensions of my room with the layout of my gear and they made some recommendations which I followed. I put bass traps in the corners and a couple of thinner panels on the ceiling above where I'd be recording. I think I invested about $600. Even with good gear, the difference was really night and day.

That was about 6-7 years ago, but I had been recording without treatment for years before that and was never really satisfied with the sound I was getting. I fell into the trap that many do: I must need a better mic. I finally heeded the advice from others that I gave you.

[Doug Young]

Mics don't absolutely need to be matched. It's best to have matched mics if you're using XY or ORTF, but for spaced pairs or MS (assuming you have a figure 8), they don't need to be, and it may even be useful to deliberately use different mics. Be careful with the Auralex, just putting foam everywhere just kills all the highs, which isn't where the real problem lies. Auralex does make other products, bass traps and so on, that may be more effective.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by jim1960

First, sorry to hear your mother isn't feeling so great.
Second, it sounds like you already have some understanding of recording so you're ahead of many in that regard.

My project studio isn't very big, only about 10x10. I sent Real Traps the dimensions of my room with the layout of my gear and they made some recommendations which I followed. I put bass traps in the corners and a couple of thinner panels on the ceiling above where I'd be recording. I think I invested about $600. Even with good gear, the difference was really night and day.

That was about 6-7 years ago, but I had been recording without treatment for years before that and was never really satisfied with the sound I was getting. I fell into the trap that many do: I must need a better mic. I finally heeded the advice from others that I gave you.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Do you feel that treatment makes a difference for close micing as well? or only at distance micing.
Please believe me, I do believe that treatment makes a difference..Everything makes a difference..the old saying..your fence is only as strong as its weakest link...so true..in everything not just recording. But back in the day...when I did go into a few professional studios...with room treatments of sorts(probably not where as sophisticated as they are today). We tried out lots of mics in those well treated rooms..and Mics made a big difference.
I should explain...that there are many different types of players. I am not a great player in anyway..but..I can get great tone out of my guitars..through simple strummed chords intermingled with single notes. So capturing the true sound..is my only asset.
Many people can argue that music needs to be complicated in order to be good. Others like simplicity..I love it all, from complicated to simple. So while I do believe that room treatment makes a difference...so do I also believe that good mics make a difference. And that is not to say that inexpensive mics can not make a good recording as well. Doug mention of his favorite recording using inexpensive mics...Possibly the combination of the reflections of his room created something wonderful. All is possible...and all makes a difference.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Do you feel that treatment makes a difference for close micing as well? or only at distance micing.

Mike very close and the room acoustics will have much less effect on the recorded sound. However then you have the sound of close mikes where proximity effects become prominent and slight body movements when playing changes the sound noticeably. In an untreated room I still put the mikes out a ways but moved pillows and blankets around and tried recording in different places in the room. A got a few decent recordings but it was very hit or miss.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by invguy921

WOW!! Great information. Now, dumb this down for us "beginners" lol. OP, not trying to hyjack your thread, and tell me if this isn't the place for this discussion and I'll start a new thread...or direct me to an old one .

"The givens"... the right room, placement, technique, etc.,

So, here's MY question...I want to record a few songs with video to post on Youtube. I have an Iphone, I have a Mac....that's it. I can spend MAX $1000 and preferably less. Doesn't need to sound like it came out of Nashville, but needs to capture the acoustic quality of my guitars. What should I buy that will allow me to record music via video, get the best possible acoustic sound, and post it easily to Youtube?

So, what I need to know is recommendations on Mic, interface, camera, etc. Any help out there?

You can create some excellent YouTube clips with your iPhone if it's a 5s or later. Use something like an iRig Pro as your audio interface http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2015/...-lampg-videos/ and spend a few hundred on a nice mic with stand and cable, a few hundred on lights and stands. The rest comes from doing it, seeing and hearing the problems, making adjustments to fix the problems, loop back to doing it, etc.

If you want stereo audio you'll need more gear in the form of a recorder or audio interface and mics, along with a willingness to sync audio and video in post production.

If your iPhone is earlier than a 5s you might want an improved camera. I'm most familiar with Panasonic options, something like a Lumix LX7 would be a good choice, I'm sure there are similar options from Canon and Sony and others, but Panasonic emphasizes video in their camera line.

Fran

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thank you, I am going to look into Realtraps and take it a bit more seriously. So many people keep on mentioning the importance of treatment..there must be something to it

I think things, much more often than not, get a little sideways on this topic. Some here mention "room treatment" as if it were a static, tangible thing. As if it were something you'd go to Sweetwater and buy. It's decidedly not. The truth is it's entirely possible a room can sound fantastic without adding any adjustments. There's some fantastic living room environments out there that hypothetically would be better left "as is".

If a room does suffer from sonic problems as is usually the case, it's always best to discern what exactly the problems are before investing in solutions. The horse before the cart so to speak.

There are of course some universal treatments that probably everyone should have at their disposal (some absorption panels perhaps) but even on a budget it's best to figure out what's wrong (or not) before looking into any solutions. The process usually unfolds with time and experience as you begin to recognize what problems the room presents. Fortunately there's plenty of info out there to begin the journey and much of it can be accomplished as a budget friendly home projects.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Do you feel that treatment makes a difference for close micing as well? or only at distance micing.
Please believe me, I do believe that treatment makes a difference..Everything makes a difference..the old saying..your fence is only as strong as its weakest link...so true..in everything not just recording. But back in the day...when I did go into a few professional studios...with room treatments of sorts(probably not where as sophisticated as they are today). We tried out lots of mics in those well treated rooms..and Mics made a big difference.
I should explain...that there are many different types of players. I am not a great player in anyway..but..I can get great tone out of my guitars..through simple strummed chords intermingled with single notes. So capturing the true sound..is my only asset.
Many people can argue that music needs to be complicated in order to be good. Others like simplicity..I love it all, from complicated to simple. So while I do believe that room treatment makes a difference...so do I also believe that good mics make a difference. And that is not to say that inexpensive mics can not make a good recording as well. Doug mention of his favorite recording using inexpensive mics...Possibly the combination of the reflections of his room created something wonderful. All is possible...and all makes a difference.

Close micing will reduce the effects of a bad room but you'll be trading one problem for the problems that rick-slo described.

Regarding things that make a difference... in truth, everything makes a difference. Some more than others, some more correctable than others. Prior to treatment, I made many attempts to get good tracks via close micing. The results were very mixed and the effort very frustrating. I had no idea how much moving around I did while playing ...even from a sitting position. As rick-slo said, just little movement can really alter the sound.

My own philosophy is that I don't want to struggle to be able to record good tracks. With my room treated, I'm able to dial in the sound I want much more easily than when my room was untreated.

If you're handy, and would rather spend time than money, bass traps aren't too hard to build. This video shows how they're made, although if I were making them, I'd make a simpler box. Real Traps sells a stand for their product but that doesn't look all that difficult to build either.