School me on the Trance Amulet

[Rexfordbridge]

In reading the post of people's favorite pickup the Trance Amulet kept popping up. Prior to this post I don't remember reading much about them. I'm currently running a K&K mini in my J-45 that goes into a K&K pre. It sounds good (after buying the pre and the sound hole cover), but all this positive talk about the Trance has peaked my curiosity.

I just got a new D-18 and it's time to install a pickup. Now I'm at the difficult decision do I try to "new" Trance Amulet, or stick with the K&K?

For people that have tried both, what can you tell me?

[Doug Young]

Trance pickups have been around for a long time - they basically are an updated version of the Frap that first popped up in the 80's or thereabout. Most people know of the Frap as the pickup of choice of Neil Young and Michael Hedges. The Trance has been regarded as the ultimate high end pickup, and one reason you probably never noticed them is that the stereo version that was the only choice until recently was expensive ($450 + $200-300 install), required a special cable in your guitar instead of a standard endpin jack, and there were only a few places in the country that installed them, so getting one might have required shipping your guitar cross country to an installer who knew how to do it. So not that many people had them or talked about them from direct experience.

That changed a year or two ago with the release of the Trance M model, which uses a fairly standard end-pin preamp, standard 1/4 cable, and a new install approach that can be done easily by any reasonably handy person, and certainly by any experienced installer. Same pickups - same sound, tho in mono, but much cheaper to buy and install. This makes them much more accessible, so they're starting to show up more. You can hear samples of the stereo system on my pickup page, and I and others have posted examples of the M version on other threads here recently.

[Rexfordbridge]

First off, thank you, Doug for the excellent response. On a side note, your website is truly the best for acoustic pickup tone.

I've only found a few drawbacks to the K&K that I use currently. One, IMHO they require a good pre (I use the K&K) for the pickup to sound good. Otherwise, they sound pretty dead. Two, when playing at a mound noisy bar with the monitors on the ground shooting up, the K&K mini will feedback. It's been an easy enough fix by buying a sound hole cover.

My questions are:
1). Is feedback a problem with the Trance?
2). What are the drawbacks/negatives of the Trance system?

[se7ent7]

As always, Doug's response was stellar. Almost a textbook short history / explanation of where the Trance comes from and fits in.

I'm a recent convert to the simplified Amulet M (M-VT in my case, which means I have the volume and tone control component).

Originally Posted by Rexfordbridge

I've only found a few drawbacks to the K&K that I use currently. One, IMHO they require a good pre (I use the K&K) for the pickup to sound good. Otherwise, they sound pretty dead. Two, when playing at a mound noisy bar with the monitors on the ground shooting up, the K&K mini will feedback. It's been an easy enough fix by buying a sound hole cover.

The nice thing about the M (M-V, M-VT) is the very high-end internal pre-amp very close to the transducers, designed specifically for them, and which also has loads of headroom and clear level.

Originally Posted by Rexfordbridge

My questions are:
1). Is feedback a problem with the Trance?
2). What are the drawbacks/negatives of the Trance system?

1). Yes, unfortunately. But not more than with similar sensitive systems (the Baggs Lyric I used previously for example).

I find it indispensible having a automatic feedback busting device, as found on the Zoom A3 or Aura Spectrum DI with sensitive pickups / internal mics like these. Some are satisfied with enough notch and parametric filters (Baggs Venue for example).

I went this route initially, but found my A3s function just so much easier and quicker (it automatically finds the frequency and notches it out with a very narrow notch within a second).

I'd be interested to know if someone has tried a soundhole feedback buster with the Trance..? If it works for the K&K I'm sure it will help with the trance.

2). It does add some weight, and of course you have an internal battery. (That's one reason I advocate for the M-V or M-VT model over the standard M, because it has a battery level indicator that starts blinking a few hours before the battery becomes unstable).

The weight is 175 grams (6.17 oz) including the 9V battery, which is a big bite less than a lady's rump steak (200g). So it's not negliable. I would have liked it to be lighter, but you get used to it quickly, and the tone is to die for.

Secondly, I've found some interference from cell phones more prevalent than with other sysems. The website makes quite a hoo-ha about the shielding (also probably why the wires from the transducers and controls are quite thick and heavy). I'm guessing they had some trouble with this inherent in the pre-amp design, and had to go overboard a bit with wire shielding, adding to the weight. Having said this, it's usually only from phones that are quite near the guitar, moving them even a bit or switching them off gets rid of the noise.

Notwithstanding these two (slightly related issues) of weight and shielding, this is the best pickup I've heard and used by a large margin!

My two words of advice: Get one! (the M-VT would be my choice)

[SpruceTop]

I've got two Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono systems that I've had installed in four different guitars. My installations were easy to do and I got satisfactory results by just locating a system's two Amulet transducers by eye (peeping through the bridgepin holes and using a mirror and small LED lights on the inside-bottom of the guitar) as close to the recommended initial locations as I could with this method. I believe even better tonal results could be attained using Trance's installation procedure. The Amulet transducers can be relocated without damaging them or the guitar to find the best tone locations should you want to experiment. Currently, I don't have a Trance system installed but I will re-install a system in my Martin HD-28 real soon. I took that system out in preparation to trade-in the guitar but didn't.

To answer your questions:

1) The Trance systems are quite feedback resistant and I'd say more so than the K&K.

2a) One drawback I can see for the Trance M Dual Mono system is that it has an on-board 9-volt battery that will have to be changed after many hours of usage (the M-V and M-VT options have a battery-warning indicator that will flash long before the battery needs to be changed). However, the advantage of having the battery and preamp on-board is that the signal only has a short run from the transducers to the audiophile-grade preamp and that maintains a noise-free, high-quality signal that is fed directly out of the guitar, via a regular 1/4" guitar cable, to any external mixer or amp. A properly-installed Trance system will likely not need any external EQ device other than a bit of that which is available on an amp or mixer channel. With a properly-installed Trance system what you'll be doing in a venue is EQing the OVERALL sound of your act for the venue's acoustic properties and NOT to try to EQ for deficiencies in the pickup system itself (think K&K and its need for an external preamp/EQ device) as the Trance system will be pretty much a good-sounding, unchanging constant.

2b) The only other drawback is that you would need to install a Trance M Dual Mono system in every guitar. The Trance Stereo system can use the same external mixer for multiple systems but you'd have to buy the internal part of the system to install in each guitar.

And yes, a Trance system sounds excellent for both fingerstyle and flatpicking!

I recommend the Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system ($319) as it has a soundhole module that contains Volume and Tone controls and, as mentioned, a battery-warning indicator light. I find the Tone control really helps in quickly getting a satisfactory tone when going from playing space to playing space.

Hope the above helps.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by se7ent7

Secondly, I've found some interference from cell phones more prevalent than with other sysems. The website makes quite a hoo-ha about the shielding (also probably why the wires from the transducers and controls are quite thick and heavy). I'm guessing they had some trouble with this inherent in the pre-amp design, and had to go overboard a bit with wire shielding, adding to the weight. Having said this, it's usually only from phones that are quite near the guitar, moving them even a bit or switching them off gets rid of the noise.

I, too, found some interference noise within about two or three feet of a wireless home system's base station. I noticed this as I would walk by the base station and it would diminish to zero noise beyond two or three feet. The Trance system doesn't seem to be affected by fluorescent lights or other sources of interference.

[Doubleneck]

The Amulet can be a great pickup but to me the comparison should be with the K&K Pro dual source with internal mic. It is about the same price and going to Dougs site playing the two there really is no comparison. Feedback could be a factor but I have never had the Pro feed back on me. Jackson Brown blends a mic for a reason.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

The Amulet can be a great pickup but to me the comparison should be with the K&K Pro dual source with internal mic. It is about the same price and going to Dougs site playing the two there really is no comparison. Feedback could be a factor but I have never had the Pro feed back on me. Jackson Brown blends a mic for a reason.

I think dual source systems, especially ones with an internal mic; will always sound a bit more natural. However, as a single source system, the Amulet sounds pretty incredible. I have nothing against the k&k systems but the super glue method does not appeal to me. Also, using an internal mic might work for some but for most of us, that's going to be a feedback nightmare. Lastly, it's true that Browne uses an external mic but that's generally only for more intimate shows where it's just him and a guitar. Lots of players do this when they play these types of shows. When he is with a full band, it's generally always just the Amulet.

[se7ent7]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think dual source systems, especially ones with an internal mic; will always sound a bit more natural. However, as a single source system, the Amulet sounds pretty incredible. I have nothing against the k&k systems but the super glue method does not appeal to me. Also, using an internal mic might work for some but for most of us, that's going to be a feedback nightmare. Lastly, it's true that Browne uses an external mic but that's generally only for more intimate shows where it's just him and a guitar. Lots of players do this when they play these types of shows. When he is with a full band, it's generally always just the Amulet.

Agreed, I must say, I thought my dual source Lyric + (modelled) Fishman UST (my "Anthem killer") was the best pickup ever... Until the Amulet.

Internal mics, even the lyric, can only add so much before feedback and "over sensitivity" becomes an issue especially in the noisy and tight pub environments I play (also the occasional large stage shows, with huge sound levels). Also, even in the best environments one often needs the bulk of the signal to be the more direct sound of the pickup. And the K&K is not quite in the league of the Amulet.

Here's one testament to the Amulet: I was using an external mic with it and found myself not realizing I'd moved too far from the external (SM57 or Rode S1) for the mic to have enough signal, and often never even noticed! I then did some A/Bs with and without the external mic, and found the (albeit dialed-in) Amulet tone so similar that I've ditched the external mics.

PS: Here's Jackson Browne using only the Amulet (very un-processed here, I must say.. I think I get mine to sound even better):



and

[Doubleneck]

Jackson Brown on the first Utube sounds like a piezo pickup to me especially evident on the bass runs at the beginning? No question a single source like this is probably a must in this band situation, but many of us don't have to cope with venues like this.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Jackson Brown on the first Utube sounds like a piezo pickup to me especially evident on the bass runs at the beginning? No question a single source like this is probably a must in this band situation, but many of us don't have to cope with venues like this.

If you can add an external or internal mic and make it work then yes, that will definitely give a more natural tone. However, I think the second clip definitely demonstrates how natural the Amulet can sound. IMO, that sounds like Browne's acoustic, only louder. The first clip does have more of a piezo tone but maybe it was eq'd that way? Also, I am sure it's the Amulet but maybe it's not.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't really need my guitar, only louder. There's something nice about the immediate attack of an onboard pickup and the enhanced bass. I will say this though, I was listening to a live album where the musicians were using Takamine guitars. It's hard to beat the Takamine system for pure acoustic tone. It's probably the only system that sounds great aggressively strummed.

[benderman57]

I have come to the conclusion that I don't really need my guitar, only louder. There's something nice about the immediate attack of an onboard pickup and the enhanced bass. I will say this though, I was listening to a live album where the musicians were using Takamine guitars. It's hard to beat the Takamine system for pure acoustic tone. It's probably the only system that sounds great aggressively strummed.[/QUOTE]

After many years of trying all kinds of pickups systems such as K&K, Baggs Anthem to name only a few I finally came to realization that in a live situation especially in any kind of band the Higher end Takamine guitars just work really well.

Not really saying it's the most natural tone but in the mix or through a really nice PA or amp they just sound great and work every time.

[Doubleneck]

Below is a Utube of Jackson Brown probably at NAMM with Trace and he talks about at the very beginning that a great recording guitar is probably not the best acoustic insrument. On stage he needs an accentuated bass. Its not just your guitar louder in his world.

http://youtu.be/QVvFJXgMacY

[SpruceTop]

I've had top-of-the-line Takamine guitars with the Palathetic Pickup, one with the CoolTube Preamp, and another one with the TLD Linedriver. The Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system sounds better. What is better? For me the Trance is clearer, has more dynamic range and is more natural-sounding but can be also be EQed, if desired, to sound BIGGER than natural. The Takamine Palathetic system, even through the CoolTube, can still sound a bit quacky and slightly distorted (especially with the tube dialed-in for warmth) when the guitar is played aggressively.

For me, the Trance M Dual Mono is the *best system I've come across and isn't any more expensive than anything else out there once you add in the likely cost of external preamps/EQ for other systems.

*Taylor ES2 is right up there too.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I've had top-of-the-line Takamine guitars with the Palathetic Pickup, one with the CoolTube Preamp, and another one with the TLD Linedriver. The Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system sounds better. What is better? For me the Trance is clearer, has more dynamic range and is more natural-sounding but can be also be EQed, if desired, to sound BIGGER than natural. The Takamine Palathetic system, even through the CoolTube, can still sound a bit quacky and slightly distorted (especially with the tube is dialed-in for warmth) when the guitar is played aggressively.

For me, the Trance M Dual Mono is the *best system I've come across and isn't any more expensive than anything else out there once you add in the likely cost of external preamps/EQ for other systems.

*Taylor ES2 is right up there too.

It's odd, when I hear demoes of the Takamine system, I am not impressed. Live however? They sound fantastic. They especially shine when driven hard. I don't hear that piezo quack in them, although more affordable Takamine guitars do use a different pickup.

Here's the thing though, I don't think the preamps used are all the same. I have read that the early 90's preamps were much better sounding than what's currently being offered. The thing is, the two bands that use Takamine guitars and get great sound (Great Big Sea+The eagles), both use Takamine guitars from the early 90's. No idea if there's anything to this but I never liked the newer cool tube preamps. Here's Great Big Sea.. not as energetic as most performances but they hammer on their guitars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVTsoOO581w


On a side note, I do like how you mentioned that the Amulet can be eq'd to sound "bigger" than natural. I struggle to get this with most pickup systems.