Modelers

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by GoPappy

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the FM3 after you've had some time with it.

Originally Posted by AX17609

I regret to report that I am not immediately enchanted. More study is called for.

I cracked the nut that is the Fractal FM3, but I haven't pulled out much meat yet. What I have learned is how to learn it.

A couple of comments. First, the FM3 is professional-grade equipment. It's not hobbyist stuff. You need to be either a working musician or semi-working musician to benefit from the time required. Second, it was not designed by audio engineers for musicians. It was designed by audio engineers for other audio engineers who happen to be musicians. It is not "user friendly" in the common sense of that term. Third, you need to have at least some experience with modeling to even know where to begin. This isn't a product for beginners.

The list of hardware interface issues is so long that I'm left to believe that the FM3 received not a single second of usability testing. I remain convinced that it was intended for people who are already skilled with the company's premier product, the Axe-FX III, and who were looking for something easier to carry around. I would not consider it an entry level product.

The path to understanding the FM3 is to use its accompanying software, FM3 Edit, to handle all the programming functions. This software is very user friendly and appears to have been written by someone with some usability training. When you use the software, you begin to see the breadth and depth of this product. You can program things you didn't even know audio equipment had. Experienced users advise newbies not to go down the FM3 "rabbit hole", but you can't help peering over the edge and marveling at its wondrousness.

My major criticism of the FM3 is that it doesn't do simple things easily. For example, the Home button doesn’t go Home, because there's no Home screen to go to. You can cycle forward thru the menus but often not backward. The USB connection disables the volume control on your computer. Audio input from your computer (e.g., backing tracks) runs thru the same volume control as your guitar, so mixing the two volumes is difficult. And so on. These are dumb mistakes in my opinion.

Heavy reliance is put on the unit's zillions of presets. Are they any good? Most people say "yes". I remain unimpressed. They are not as good as the ones I built myself on my Spark 40, a unit less than 1/4 the price of the FM3. I'm sure that self-built presets on the FM3 will be better, because you have more control, but that requires self-building them. It also requires knowing the secrets of the modeling trade.

I have 15 days from the date of receipt to determine if I'm keeping the unit. I'll let you know if I did. I have miles to go in introductory training.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I regret to report that I am not immediately enchanted. More study is called for.

I am very sorry about this. What a shame. I hope eventually you feel good about this.

- Glenn

[Glennwillow]

Recently I took an old Line 6 POD XT rack mount unit, a red one that looks like this and plugged it into my old Fender Blues Deville 410. But I plugged it only into the power amp input, bypassing the amp's preamp.

It actually sounds quite good. I am using pedals in front of the POD XT and that works great, too. This is a unit I have had laying around, packed away, not used, because I bought a newer Line 6 POD HD unit.

Somehow running this old unit through the tube power amp and those Jensen 4 x 10" speakers sounds really quite good. And this cost me nothing. I like being able to dial in all kinds of different amps.

- Glenn

[Bob Womack]

My home rehearsal rig consists of the Helix Floor that I also commute to the studio. I run it to a Marshall JTM60 combo and a Leslie G37 rotary amp in stereo. I bypass the Helix's internal cabinets when I am home and turn them back on when I go to the studio. I also have a global EQ that I use only with the guitar amps. The amps are those two outboard ones below:


AX17609, you might consider looking into the Helix. It is generally considered the most user-friendly of all the modelers and with the recent updates, most seem to think its amps and cabs are second to none. Putting mine up on the table allows me to program it directly. By the way, I basically only use the computer for updates and to backup the unit. The display and menu structure are easy enough that I am able to do most everything I want directly on the unit.

Bob

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

AX17609, you might consider looking into the Helix.

Thanks, Bob. I want you to know that I value your input and have studied everything you've ever written on this subject, both here and on your personal website.

In spite of its reputation for being fairly easy to use, I didn't buy Line 6 for a couple of reasons. First, I could never land on the specific product that fit my needs. The company has done an excellent job of layering their products in a way that makes you wish you had bought the next product higher up the chain. I researched their line up for months and could never land on the same product twice.

Second, my general sense is that Line 6 users tend to use tones that are more heavily processed than mine. I'm a very old school guy, and I never used a board full of pedals. I stay as close to basic amp sounds as I can. I don't use a vintage amp, because they are now overwhelmingly expensive, and modeling is the very clearly the future. I want to figure it out.

Third, the guys whose tones I admire tend to recommend Fractal. Chief among those is Jeff McErlain in whose blues course I'm currently enrolled. The tones are there to be had.

I've used a lot of complicated equipment in my life. I learned how to use an ancient Siemens electron microscope on my own by consulting service manuals poorly translated from German. I built a whole laboratory from discarded equipment scattered around in the NIH warehouse. So I'm confident I'll figure this thing out.

[davidd]

Just sold my POD Go. If you are into modelers they are great units. I've decided life is too short for musical toys that get in the way of making music.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Recently I took an old Line 6 POD XT rack mount unit, a red one that looks like this and plugged it into my old Fender Blues Deville 410. But I plugged it only into the power amp input, bypassing the amp's preamp.

It actually sounds quite good. I am using pedals in front of the POD XT and that works great, too. This is a unit I have had laying around, packed away, not used, because I bought a newer Line 6 POD HD unit.

Somehow running this old unit through the tube power amp and those Jensen 4 x 10" speakers sounds really quite good. And this cost me nothing. I like being able to dial in all kinds of different amps.

- Glenn

I used to do exactly the same thing with my kidney bean original POD back in the day. The different flavors and gain settings came through from the POD modeler, but the "speaker" emulation of the actual 4x10 cab was a nice plus. I could rarely crank that amps power section, so anything it added was probably subtle.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Thanks, Bob. I want you to know that I value your input and have studied everything you've ever written on this subject, both here and on your personal website.

Thank you for your kindness.

In spite of its reputation for being fairly easy to use, I didn't buy Line 6 for a couple of reasons. First, I could never land on the specific product that fit my needs. The company has done an excellent job of layering their products in a way that makes you wish you had bought the next product higher up the chain. I researched their line up for months and could never land on the same product twice.

I understand. I gave up and went to the top with the Helix Floor. It is heavy and not necessarily for everyone.

Second, my general sense is that Line 6 users tend to use tones that are more heavily processed than mine. I'm a very old school guy, and I never used a board full of pedals. I stay as close to basic amp sounds as I can. I don't use a vintage amp, because they are now overwhelmingly expensive, and modeling is the very clearly the future. I want to figure it out.

I understand. I hear a lot of modelers' patches and yes, they are often quite processed. By contrast, my patches, which I built from the ground up, are really basic, in fact, they resemble the analog rigs I use with a Fender Deluxe, a Fender Princeton, and a Marshall 1987 Plexi amp as the models. But I do realize that I am an outlier.

Third, the guys whose tones I admire tend to recommend Fractal. Chief among those is Jeff McErlain in whose blues course I'm currently enrolled. The tones are there to be had.

I've used a lot of complicated equipment in my life. I learned how to use an ancient Siemens electron microscope on my own by consulting service manuals poorly translated from German. I built a whole laboratory from discarded equipment scattered around in the NIH warehouse. So I'm confident I'll figure this thing out.

You know, following someone who has success is a great starting point. I'm sure you'll do fine, too. You've got the right kind of mind for it.

All the best!

Bob

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I used to do exactly the same thing with my kidney bean original POD back in the day. The different flavors and gain settings came through from the POD modeler, but the "speaker" emulation of the actual 4x10 cab was a nice plus. I could rarely crank that amps power section, so anything it added was probably subtle.

Hi Frank,

I also like that I can get overdrive character in the sound of the amp without high volume in the room. The volume is controlled by how much volume I send into the Deville amp.

I am not obsessing about any particular amp sound. I'm just looking for good sounds, which is kind of where Bob Womack has been going. The difference is that I'm using a unit that is basically out of date and costs me nothing.

I'm reminded that I used to get pretty good sounds out of the old POD kidney bean original, too. This POD XT rack mount was a step up, however.

- Glenn

[AX17609]

I'm returning the FM3. In the end it wasn't a usability issue. Once I started using the FM3-Edit software, programming the unit was easy. I can do every function I need to do along with a host of others I never knew were available to be done. It's strictly a performance issue. I don't like the way it sounds, and I play terribly thru it. I'm very disappointed.

[DavidE]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I'm returning the FM3. In the end it wasn't a usability issue. Once I started using the FM3-Edit software, programming the unit was easy. I can do every function I need to do along with a host of others I never knew were available to be done. It's strictly a performance issue. I don't like the way it sounds, and I play terribly thru it. I'm very disappointed.

See if a local big box store has a Fender Tone Master Pro in stock to try. I’m surprised at how good it sounds and feels. And I had the FM9, Helix Floor, Kemper and Quad Cortex.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I'm returning the FM3. In the end it wasn't a usability issue. Once I started using the FM3-Edit software, programming the unit was easy. I can do every function I need to do along with a host of others I never knew were available to be done. It's strictly a performance issue. I don't like the way it sounds, and I play terribly thru it. I'm very disappointed.

It sounds like you are taking the right action. I'm sorry this unit was a disappointment.

- Glenn

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by DavidE

See if a local big box store has a Fender Tone Master Pro in stock to try. I’m surprised at how good it sounds and feels. And I had the FM9, Helix Floor, Kemper and Quad Cortex.

Thanks, that's an astonishing recommendation give what I've heard from guys like John Cordy. Fortunately, I already have a good modeler. I get laughed at when I say this, but my Spark 40 is really good, and it cost essentially nothing. It also has some user features that are perfectly targeted for my intended purpose. From the perspective of a guitarist who isn't an audio engineer, it's a better designed product than the Fractal at less than 1/4 of the cost.

[SaintClarence27]

Originally Posted by DavidE

See if a local big box store has a Fender Tone Master Pro in stock to try. I’m surprised at how good it sounds and feels. And I had the FM9, Helix Floor, Kemper and Quad Cortex.

As a newbie to multi FX pedals, I'm thinking about the Line6 Pod Go. All the Helix IR without the cost.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I'm returning the FM3. In the end it wasn't a usability issue. Once I started using the FM3-Edit software, programming the unit was easy. I can do every function I need to do along with a host of others I never knew were available to be done. It's strictly a performance issue. I don't like the way it sounds, and I play terribly thru it. I'm very disappointed.

Too bad the sounds didn't work out for you. But I'd suggest in future, if you decide to try a different modeling solution, it's best to cut to the chase right away and use the software/app right from the beginning on anything this complicated. For me at least, past a certain level of compexity (a level which FM3 far exceeds) there's no substitute for a large screen, keyboard and mouse. Or maybe that's just me.