TJ Thompson $$$$$

[canuck7]

Not to be outdone, here’s a Somogyi…

https://cartervintage.com/shop/somog...ibextid=Zxz2cZ

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by canuck7

Not to be outdone, here’s a Somogyi…

https://cartervintage.com/shop/somog...ibextid=Zxz2cZ

At least that price makes sense.

[Deliberate1]

Sorry, duplicate musing.
David

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by sinistral

At least that price makes sense.

Why does that price make sense?

Just because it's Ervin?

Someone still has to play the guitar with commensurate skill, and that goes for ALL the "All Time Shooting Star" luthiers and their guitars.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Why does that price make sense?

Just because it's Ervin?

Someone still has to play the guitar with commensurate skill, and that goes for ALL the "All Time Shooting Star" luthiers and their guitars.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

I was being facetious.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by sinistral

I was being facetious.

Oh...I am sorry I missed your intended meaning...I should have guessed the sarcasm font was in play {;-)

To a great degree, this is the high end dealers like Carter's or Dream driving this train too. Pushing the envelope on pricing at the high end.

I guess if the dealers/sellers can find buyers at these pricing levels...more power to them...but still...at some point...


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Deliberate1]

I have been in the guitar universe for less than five years. But, in that time, I have observed a segment of the instrument market morph into a fine art market/collectable dynamic - albeit with strings attached.
David

[mhw48]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

I have been in the guitar universe for less than five years. But, in that time, I have observed a segment of the instrument market morph into a fine art market/collectable dynamic - albeit with strings attached.
David

The guitar universe has been at it for some time -- I remember back in the early seventies my guitar teacher bitterly complaining about George Gruhn, Matt Umanov and Stan Jay turning pre-war instruments into collectibles, out of reach of the musicians who used to be able to find them at affordable prices in second hand shops. I read an interesting account of Clarence White setting out (in the 60's) to buy his pre-war D-28 and not wanting to shell out the $50-75 that the examples in better shape cost, so spending $25 on the beat up one he made famous...

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

I have been in the guitar universe for less than five years. But, in that time, I have observed a segment of the instrument market morph into a fine art market/collectable dynamic - albeit with strings attached.
David

Nah, guitar collectors have been around forever. There is nothing unique about the last five years except perhaps the dramatic acceleration in the prices. It's always hard to predict these things, but the current market has the look and feel of a bubble. I'm not surprised TJ is commanding these kinds of prices at the moment. Whether the prices of some of these modern luthiers will be sustainable over the long term, I guess we'll see. Fortunately, it's not something I have to worry about!

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Nah, guitar collectors have been around forever. There is nothing unique about the last five years except perhaps the dramatic acceleration in the prices. It's always hard to predict these things, but the current market has the look and feel of a bubble. I'm not surprised TJ is commanding these kinds of prices at the moment. Whether the prices of some of these modern luthiers will be sustainable over the long term, I guess we'll see. Fortunately, it's not something I have to worry about!

Well said. There also some relatively new young makers who are seeking strong prices right out of the gate ($10,000-15,000) and I wonder if that is a bit of a bubble as well. Time will tell…..

[Johnny_Boy]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I'm not surprised TJ is commanding these kinds of prices at the moment.

I talked to TJ really briefly this week and he was surprised about that listing at Dream Guitar. He didn't wear it like a proud badge, which some people might. He was more like, oh great, now no one will ever order a guitar from me after that price point introduction by Dream Guitars!

Jim Olson always said his guitars are not worth what he is charging for.

These are two examples of many humble builders who love what they do, but wonders what is going on with the market pricing.

Definitely the market has been going a bit crazy for several years.

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by Johnny_Boy

...Jim Olson always said his guitars are not worth what he is charging for.

These are two examples of many humble builders who love what they do, but wonders what is going on with the market pricing.

Interesting definition of humble builder...If your representation is accurate, of course.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by jmagill

For those still agog at the price of the TJ Thompson guitar, consider this item that appeared recently at Dream Guitars: a 1930 Martin OM-45 Deluxe. This was probably Martin's fanciest production-model guitar, and it's one of only 14 ever made. Dream had it priced at $515,000. and it sold in less than a day.



If price and value are related-but-different as I've suggested, how does the relationship between them work for a guitar like this?

I've managed two music stores in the past, and I think of guitars as having what I call an 'intrinsic cost', or what it actually cost to make. This includes the price of the materials, the labor to build the instrument, the company's marketing and distribution costs, the dealer's overhead, and the final sale to a customer, with everyone involved making a fair profit each step of the way. For a new instrument, the intrinsic cost is pretty closely aligned with the retail price. For instruments that are used, vintage or rare, other factors determine price, but their intrinsic cost remains the same.

This OM-45 Deluxe probably sold for a few hundred bucks in 1930 – a pretty penny back then. For the sake of argument, let's say it was $300, or $5,400 in today's money. This intrinsic cost is still off the selling price by a factor of nearly one hundred. When these two amounts get this far apart, the guitar's value as an instrument for making music becomes secondary, if not irrelevant.

I've played several guitars with 6-figure price tags, and they were great guitars, but I always focus on value rather than price, and considering their intrinsic cost, none of them had a value I considered to be anywhere close to their selling price.

Guitars like TJ's and this Martin are not being sold to the likes of you and me. They're going to well-heeled collectors who can spend half a million on a guitar and think they got a good deal. And they're probably right.

They are not like us.

So, admire these guitars for the eye candy they are, as you would a 50-ft. yacht or a gold-plated Lamborghini, and don't get bent out of shape by their crazy-stupid prices.

.

The downside of having a 1930 OM-45 deluxe is that I just could not see myself taking it with me and swapping songs on it at the gathering The Upside is I would have a 1930 OM-45 deluxe, which implies I could afford it


Ok, Look at the hour...Time to check out the classifieds

[Deliberate1]

I am not a luthier. I do not run a shop where guitars, or any instruments for that matter, are made or sold. But I am very curious about the market for those things for which I have a passion. And for the last four or so years, that has been guitars.

During that time, I have, as noted above, observed the remarkable increase in prices for vintage instruments. Because, I suppose, they are vintage. But I have also seen the way the escalation in used prices for the work of some well-known luthiers has driven up their asking prices for new instruments. It makes sense, in market terms. If a used guitar you made 20 years ago for $5000 now fetches $20,000 used, it makes little sense to sell your newest creations for less than the current market. Interesting that the pre-owned market drives, or at least "informs," the new one. And commands the pricing paradigm, apparently to the chagrin of some illustrious builders (see post above).

But what has surprised me the most is the way the used market, bubble or not, seems to have lifted many other boats. Last fall, when I was considering my first commission, I contacted a luthier whose guitars I admired despite the fact that he was only three or so years into the practice, according to his bio. I did not hear back from him. But when I checked his website shortly thereafter, his prices had increased by approximately 50% for the basic build. And that he had secured a choice apprenticeship. Apparently, that association has immediate value in this market as well, even if he is making the very same guitars, for the moment. I guess it is an inducement to "get in early."

David

[gitarro]

I have found the prices of many non vintage custom guitars appreciating to the point when they are well beyond the reach of most professional musicians and amateur players. It seems to me to be driven in the medium range of up to 10K - 15k or so by people who are reasonably well off and want a nice bespoke instrument to play that is customised to their wants. In the more higher priced range of 20K and above, these are well-heeled collectors who can afford to buy multiple guitars of that kind of price. However once we reach prices in excess of even those elevated prices, I reckon those guitars are almost investment pieces and which are bought because they are expected to not only keep their value but to rise in value indefinitely due to scarcity. Such is the case with prewar martins and very low-volume but high demand luthiers like T J Thompson in particular, but also with higher volume luthiers who are nevertheless blessed with huge demand for their guitars like Kim Walker. Those guitars are no longer bought purely because they are great guitars per se (which they are) but because they can bring in lots of money in the long term.

I used to buy (and sell) what were expensive guitars to me in years past but having tried almost all the guitars I have been interested to try out, I no long have the budget for what is becoming a hobby only for the fiscally wealthy. I never got into the hobby for making money (maybe I was unwise in this regard?) butbecause I really liked the response of a great acoustic guitar and the way it made me feel when I was playing it. But it is just getting crazy expensive with even newer luthiers asking for frankly amazing prices for their sophomore guitars, and young luthiers raising their prices because of some association or apprenticeship with a famous luthier. Now this trend of escalation of prices is reaching truly incredible heights, and frankly I am out of this kind of market...

Will we one day see the travesty of foundations and investment banks buying a Somogyi Mod D for a million dollars and then loaning it to a famous guitarist to play along the lines of how Stradivarius violins are treated, and then selling it for a few milion a few years down the road? I somehow dont think so because unlike orchestral classical music instruments like the violin and the cello, the guitar has always been a democratic instrument for the masses. It is more likely IMHO that once the babyboomers depart the scene, the bottom will fall out of the custom and prewar guitar market and there will be many people who spent incredible sums of money on guitars who or whose heirs will be flogging them off for a fraction of those prices in the decades to come, but what do I know...

I find myself appreciating the attitude of luthiers like Ed Claxton who could have joined the very understandable trend of luthiers raising their prices to 30K and above to catch this kind of updraft that is also stirred up by some shops setting used prices at a very high level. After all luthiers have mouths to feed an kids to put through college like everybody else so all power to them. But for those luthiers who made world class instruments that are just as good and better in many cases than the hyper expensive instruments made by some other luthiers and never joined that particular trend and who just wanted to make guitars for musicians and enthusiasts for what was enough for them, that calling is worthy of great respect and I take my hat off to you.