Will McNicol - Jupiter

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Belsham

Great job man, it's flowing really naturally. Good job on those harmonics too, they're still way too hit or miss for me! ...
It's a gorgeous piece, I'm really enjoying playing. I may try and record it today, but I get the feeling I'm not gonna get 'the take'. at 4+ minutes of delicate, precise, controlled playing it's tough to get the perfect playthrough eh?! I can just about cope with 1m instagram videos!

Thanks! I ended up with 3 or 4 takes with varying mistakes, and I went with the one that had better harmonics!

Originally Posted by Gtrfinger

I thought you did a fine job. It sounds like it's a difficult one to keep the timing right with, and if there's a lot of tied notes between bars, especially when those very fast ornamented runs come in, it becomes even more difficult. Have you been practicing it with a metronome?

Thank you. I started practising it with a metronome, then stopped because Will's performance is so ebb/flow that I didn't want to get trapped at one tempo. But obviously, that also means I might speed up at the wrong time! I guess that if I were to keep improving, I might set a metronome for each section and play to it. Hmmm.

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I hear a definite improvement there Tom! I know it's not perfect and it may never be, but it's always going to be a work in progress. I'll look forward to hearing you play this 5 or 10 years from now! I bet it will be even better!
...
Well done Tom!

- Glenn

Thanks for the support! I will add this piece to my list of 'play this every time I pick up a guitar'. It's in standard tuning, which helps too.

Tom

[Wrighty]

Great job, much improved all round. Sounding really good!

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Great job, much improved all round. Sounding really good!

Thanks Wrighty! Next up, something nice and fast at a constant speed!

Tom

[Voxbox30]

Hi Tom,

That's a cracking job on a really challenging tune, so I thought I'd chuck in my tuppence worth as I'm on the same path and finding the same challenges too.
Will McNicol sent me here - he's been teaching me this for the past while, so I thought I'd pass on some of the insights he's given me.

That section at bars 82-85 that starts around 2m10s in your last video are the thing that really gets me too. I've spent hours on that section, and this is what I've worked out, or Will has pointed out.

The four grace notes played p-i-m-p like a fast roll with the right hand need to be played more slowly than you'd think. I was playing them too fast and also using the flesh of my thumb too much, so they sounded like mush. I now try to use as much nail as possible to get that machine-gun staccato effect. I think Will is using all nails with no flesh.
To me they are like grace notes in bagpipe playing. In this context they don't need to be sounded totally, just give almost a percussive effect, but they do need to be distinct. I'd try stretching out the timing of them rather than playing them as fast as possible, which is what I was doing initially. I think this is key to making them work.

Will said to make an exercise of playing them slowly. That will get them sounding nice and even as slow speed, so should translate into playing them articulately at a higher speed. You could just make an exercise of the chord shapes and play them without playing the open 1st and second strings or the following hammer-ons and slides, just to keep it simple and focus on those tricky rolls. Will said to use a light touch with the right hand as well.
When the following chord is played after the hammer-on and slide up, try making it as short as possible, like a stab. That will give you more time to do the right hand roll/gracenote thing. I was holding onto it too long, not by much, but enough to restrict the time for doing the next gracenote roll. Will certainly just stabs those chords as quickly as possible. you can make it out if you slow the playback down to something like 30-50% of full speed. I think this is another key element.

I've been using Transcribe for slowing down and looping each section, especially the one I've been discussing. It's been really invaluable for getting my speed up, and its like looking at the tune with a microscope when you slow it down.

Health Warning - I've found I do need to be warmed up before attempting that section - I hurt the back of my right hand by practicing the section when cold and had to lay off for a few days. Thought I'd damaged something - not nice at all!

I guess everyone will have their own interpretation of how they want to play the tune, and the journey they take through it.
There are two key points in it for me that may help. I see the end section as a sigh or a hug, probably both. Will calls it a hug
The very first couple of bars sound like a tentative question, and thinking of these two elements led me to think of the whole tune in between as a conversation between two people, as there is a bit of back and forth during it, maybe even a bit of a disagreement, but it all resolves with a big hug at the end. Just my current thinking on it, so I hope that helps

One other thing - I've found that really stretching out the rolled chords helps, doing them more slowly rather than quickly. I noticed I was rolling them too quickly when I played along with Will's recording. Definitely makes a difference to the flow of it.

And another - The harmonics on the 1st and 2nd strings at the end of that upward progression - I often get them, but I found I got them more often after placing a sticker on the inside the sound hole opposite where the harmonics are on the strings. And no-one can see the sticker

Mind you, you could always book a few Skype lessons with Will..... he's really helpful and insightful too. He did say that this was one of his more challenging tunes.....

All the best.

Cheers, Colin

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by Voxbox30

Hi Tom,

That section at bars 82-85 that starts around 2m10s in your last video are the thing that really gets me too. I've spent hours on that section, and this is what I've worked out, or Will has pointed out.
...
When the following chord is played after the hammer-on and slide up, try making it as short as possible, like a stab.
...

The very first couple of bars sound like a tentative question, and thinking of these two elements led me to think of the whole tune in between as a conversation between two people

...
I found I got them more often after placing a sticker on the inside the sound hole opposite where the harmonics are on the strings.

I missed this reply - sorry!

Excellent comments and thoughts on learning the piece.

Those grace-notes in bars 82+ are so hard. I ended up with two ways of playing them, one way was much more like the real way with the stabbed chords. The other way is the way I settled on in the last recording -- the reason for 'settling' was mostly to do with the timing of going into that section. I can never get it right when playing it properly, and it threw me out of time, so in the end I've just stuck with the 'wrong' way of doing it.

The question/response is a great way of thinking about the phrasing. I'm annoyed that in that last recording I sped up at the end -- leading to rolling those soft chords to fast too. Sometimes in practise I really play with the tempo to soften the ending.

And those harmonics! I used reference points around the soundhole/pickguard to zero-in on the right spot on the string. But even when I had got it pinpointed, I could still mess up the execution while playing.

All in all, I've still got plenty to revisit, and I learned plenty to get where I am!

Tom

[UKPhil]

What a great thread this is. Lovely playing and you can hear the improvement in the second video which is nice Tom. I admire your playing and in particular your determination to tackle learning a piece like this which we all appreciate is very difficult!! I wish I could summon up such enthusiasm.

Even Les Dawson gets a mention which I suspect will only resonate with us here in the UK

[rémy64]

Well done . It's a very difficult piece to perform and you are doing very well

[Kenneth Belsham]

Originally Posted by tdlwhite

I missed this reply - sorry!
And those harmonics! I used reference points around the soundhole/pickguard to zero-in on the right spot on the string. But even when I had got it pinpointed, I could still mess up the execution while playing.

Haha, I have that Dimarzio pickup on the Lowden, and always use the polepieces as reference points for harmonics at the virtual 23/24th fret. Still manage to miss these plenty though!

[islandguitar]

I marvel at the job you've done with this exceptional and difficult piece, Tom! Bravo!
Best wishes,
Fred

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by UKPhil

What a great thread this is. Lovely playing and you can hear the improvement in the second video which is nice Tom...

Even Les Dawson gets a mention which I suspect will only resonate with us here in the UK

Thanks Phil! You never can tell which TV shows made it over the channel/atlantic. I like to think that there is a land-locked county somewhere that is the world's greatest importer of Blankety-Blank checque-book and pens.

Originally Posted by rémy64

Well done . It's a very difficult piece to perform and you are doing very well

Thanks for the encouragement!

Originally Posted by Kenneth Belsham

Haha, I have that Dimarzio pickup on the Lowden, and always use the polepieces as reference points for harmonics at the virtual 23/24th fret. Still manage to miss these plenty though!

I'm hoping there's a magic point in the (not too distant) future where my fingers naturally find right place on the string every time.

Originally Posted by islandguitar

I marvel at the job you've done with this exceptional and difficult piece, Tom! Bravo!

Thanks Fred!

[Voxbox30]

Hi Tom,

Another couple of thoughts on THAT pair of harmonics.

You could try turning your whole hand before playing them so the first finger is at 90 degrees to the strings. Then striking the strings with the third finger. That's a WMcN suggestion/instruction I thought worth passing on.

I've also found that laying my first finger on not just the first and second strings, but ALSO on the third string, which is muted by the left hand, and aiming to to sound ALL three top strings results in getting a higher success rate in sounding the first and second strings which are ones you want.

I often find that I get the first string harmonic but not the second string which sounds open, but if I go for the three strings I'll get the second string harmonic more often. Worth a shot

All the best sir!
Cheers, Colin