Key change to ban ?

[mawmow]

As we know, fret intervals on guitars are the result of some compromise and no regular guitar
always produce perfect intonation, so that some chords may sound badly sometimes.

We could help with adjusting tuning but what about key change in a piece ?

It sounds to my ears such a change sounds bad sometimes : Am I right ?

Are there key change that could cause some problems an audience would hear or it is just in my own ears ?

[Italuke]

Hmm, theoretically no. That's exactly why equal temperment evolved. To be able to play in any key and they would all sound equally not perfect.

[b1j]

For me it depends on how artfully the change is arrived at. Case in point: can we go from E major to G major? Check out New Kid in Town.

[Gchord]

Originally Posted by b1j

For me it depends on how artfully the change is arrived at. Case in point: can we go from E major to G major? Check out New Kid in Town.

And The Last Resort.

[Robin, Wales]

E maj to G maj shouldn't work because the B note moves from being the 5th to the 3rd of the scale. In just intonation that would be "ouch" but in equal temperament both are equally "Meh!". So you should be OK on guitar.

Please note that, in this context "ouch" and "Meh!" convey a technical level of musical complexity that only a person with doctorate in classical music composition could possibly understand.

[Mr. Jelly]

Yes, you are correct about key changes not sounding so good. But that supposes that the audience is actually paying that close of attention. And getting the audience to pay attention is usually why there is a key change in a song. They are just another musical gimmick.

[mawmow]

Well, thanks guys for your kind answers.

So moving from E to G is an artistry challenge…

May I take as a rule of thumb that the same apply to a key change
of a step and a half, say from C to F and F to A ?

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by mawmow

As we know, fret intervals on guitars are the result of some compromise and no regular guitar
always produce perfect intonation, so that some chords may sound badly sometimes.

You have a misunderstanding here. Assuming a guitar with proper intonation, by using equal temperament ALL chords are equally in-tune (or out-of-tune depending on how you look at it).

There should never be chords that 'sometimes' sound out of tune. If that happens, then either the strings are NOT in tune, or the intonation is poor, or the player is causing some notes to be sharp due to technique issues.

If certain key changes/chord movements sound odd, it has nothing to do with equal temperament. It tends to be cultural rather than absolute.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by mawmow

Well, thanks guys for your kind answers.

So moving from E to G is an artistry challenge…

May I take as a rule of thumb that the same apply to a key change
of a step and a half, say from C to F and F to A ?

Gordon is technically correct. All chords on guitar are equally in (or out of) tune.

But that key switch you mention of C to F (which is two and a half steps, rather than a step and a half) is one of those natural key changes that works.

If you tuned all the strings on your guitar to a C note and played a tune on one string in the key of C against the other strings acting as C drones then it would sound OK. If you then switched that melody on the same string to the key of F against those C drones it would also work.

This is the fundamental behind dance tune "sets" in Celtic countries. And a few Appalachian fiddle tunes do the same key switch mid-tune, such as Ebenezer or Over the Waterfall.

So there are some key changes that sound more "natural" than others despite, as Gordon rightly says, all the chords on guitar being equally in tune.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

Assuming a guitar with proper intonation

But (and I'm going from a vague-ish memory here, so I hope somebody can back me up/correct me) isn't it the case that most guitars aren't even properly intonated? Due to the nature of strings lengths/diameters/neck geometry etc., we still need to compensate even more. My understanding is that a slanted and compensated saddle only gets part of the way there, and unless you also have a compensated nut and/or some kind of fan-fret thing going on, you guitar won't even quite be correct with equal temperament.

If that's true, then I guess some keys could sound a bit more "off" than others.

[stanron]

Listen to some of the old Big Band tracks with vocals. The singer rarely sings in the same key as the band plays before the singer starts. The change is made with a short bridge section which takes everyone to the new key in comfortable steps. You can do any key change like that. Even on Guitar.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mawmow

Well, thanks guys for your kind answers.

So moving from E to G is an artistry challenge…

The Beatles changed key from G to Bb in Here There and Everywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdcSFVXd3MU
Listen out at 0:56. They did it with a quick change to an F chord instead of D (on "want her").

Poco changed key from F# to A in Rose of Cimarron, with no preparation at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiDNlCyHp0I
Listen out at 0:49. You think that sounds bad? IMO it sounds terrific.

Both these songs get back to the original key via the relative minor. I.e., in the Beatles, the Bb major becomes G minor, before returning to G major. In the Poco, A major turns to F# minor before working its way back to F# major.

Originally Posted by mawmow

May I take as a rule of thumb that the same apply to a key change
of a step and a half, say from C to F and F to A ?

C to F is up a 4th, 5 half-steps. F to A is up a major 3rd, 4 half-steps.

C to F is a common enough change (especially into the bridge of a song), because the scale only changes by one note. An example from the Beatles (again) is From Me To You, where the song starts in C, and the bridge ("I've got arms....") modulates to F via Gm-C7. Then back to C via D7-G7. (That's a real old-fashioned jazz/country-style bridge.)

F to A is a little rarer, but you hear the same change (C major to E major) in Jackie deShannon's Needles and Pins - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSbM_Zmx9kA. At 1:18 the G chord (V of C major) drops to E major. But then it descends to D and C, making you not quite sure where it's going, before the B major leads you out into E major at 1:33. The song then stays in that key to the end.

The Pretenders' Kid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbC8JltxSq8 - does much the same thing. At 1:35, a G chord - this time at the end of the bridge - leads to the E major guitar solo, and the song stays in E major from that point.

[mawmow]

Thanks again guys !

I made a mistake : I wanted to name C to Eb or D to F.

Anyway, all your interventions brought some interesting thoughts to me.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by mawmow

Well, thanks guys for your kind answers.

So moving from E to G is an artistry challenge…

May I take as a rule of thumb that the same apply to a key change
of a step and a half, say from C to F and F to A ?

Hi maw mow

There are not any recommended key changes which we need to avoid. Adapt, perhaps, but not avoid.

Every guitar has the potential to be intonated properly and pretty closely to equal temperament. Almost none arrive that way out-of-the-box. And even when well set up there are notes which do not sound in tune.

And most listeners (including performers who play and sing) don't freak out of a few ¹⁄₁₀₀₀ half steps (or even 3-4 cents).

Weight of strings, height of action, how hard we fret the notes, the acuracy of the fret work during construction, wear-n-tear (age), etc all affect intonation. It's going to be more noticeable with a solo guitarist than with an ensemble, or band…especially when singers are involved.

And the inconsistencies are more noticed (not necessarily noticeable) because of the accuracy of modern clip on tuners & strobes.

My practice is to play and sing to my heart's content changing things as freely as I need to when adapting pieces for playing and singing. Have fun! This is music not a lab experiment.

[Silly Moustache]

Deal with it!


I (used to) play Dobro. Some years ago, Sally Van Meter told me "flatten the (two) B strings".

On 6 string guitars, as I tend to work out of mainly 1st position G or C shapes I tune the guitar to0 the Notes of a "bluegrass" G, like this :