Schatten HFN vs Dazzo?

[AndyC]

Hi Folks

Does anybody have any experience of using both of these pickups to provide a real world comparison?

Or has anybody swapped out Dazzo's for the Schatten in any of their guitars?

Thx.

[Vancebo]

I think you can go give a listen to Doug Young’s pickup test page and get an example of the Schatten and the Dazzo. Not too many months ago Doug added a new Dazzo recording that seemed pretty Dazzling to me. You will notice similar characteristics between the two recordings which should not be surprising to you. Both are mic like. Both have the ability to hear body taps and both are SBTs that sound very natural. You have the ability to get Dazzos with varying bass responses. Maybe the Schatten doesn’t need that ability. I think people like not having to glue the Schatten in. The Dazzo uses an epoxy install. Other things can be used too like tape and putty it’s just that Teddy likes the sound of epoxy.

[TNO]

Listening to Doug's clips I noticed they have similar character. Especially the sustain at the end of the clips. I remember the Dazzo sounding a bit fuller tho. Not being glued in is a huge advantage for Schatten. I'm planning on moving mine to another guitar.

[Gordon Currie]

I just got a Schatten installed in an older Larrivee L-28, and I have a Dazzo installed in a 2016 Irvin SJ.

What I noticed about the Dazzo was a feeling of having my ear inside the guitar (in a good way). It is a very present sound with a bit of 'air' that my K+K guitars lack.

What I noticed immediately about the Schatten was that same 'air.'

These two guitar are very different in materials (spruce/rosewood and cedar/padauk respectively) so it's difficult to compare much more specifically.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

I just got a Schatten installed in an older Larrivee L-28, and I have a Dazzo installed in a 2016 Irvin SJ.

What I noticed about the Dazzo was a feeling of having my ear inside the guitar (in a good way). It is a very present sound with a bit of 'air' that my K+K guitars lack.

What I noticed immediately about the Schatten was that same 'air.'

These two guitar are very different in materials (spruce/rosewood and cedar/padauk respectively) so it's difficult to compare much more specifically.

That's pretty neat to hear. For the price and ease of installation, the HFN seems like a no brainer. It's odd that Schatten took this long to catch on here.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Hi Folks

Does anybody have any experience of using both of these pickups to provide a real world comparison?

Or has anybody swapped out Dazzo's for the Schatten in any of their guitars?

Thx.

I haven't tried the Dazzo personally, mostly because I got turned off from the install. Apparently it's really picky about where you put the discs. I did however swap out 2 anthems for Schattens though and couldn't be happier. Simple install, not too picky about placement, and sounds amazing.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Or has anybody swapped out Dazzo's for the Schatten in any of their guitars

You've got to admit this is the only place in the world where you could ask this question and reasonably expect someone to have done it! And still cheaper than a decent psychologist...

My Schatten HFN arrived a few days ago (Blue Star Music with the ABS base as pictured on their website). I'm not ready to drill out the end pin of my CO-PA as it still feels brand new. The CH-PA is well served by a UST at my gigs. So my HFN story will have to wait. The installation is a huge step towards simplicity (and reversibility) compared to any other SBT option. If it even just sounds nearly as good it is a winner. Testing the pickup outside of a guitar it seems in the output level ballpark of a K&K Mini.

[Vancebo]

As a Dazzo fan, I remember awhile ago when all the excitement was going on about the Trance system. Both Trance and Dazzo have their origins from the old FRAP. People wanted to know how those two compared. So I bought a used one and put it into a GS Mini and I had a Dazzo in another GS Mini. Both of course were similar. I just chose to stick with the passive Dazzos. Since then, Sunnaudio products hit the market and the onboard tone driver made the Dazzo better. So now all my guitars have an onboard preamp from Sunnaudio. These comparisons are sometimes fun to do. I have bought a lot of gear just for kicks. Maybe I will get inspired to try a Schatten and then the world will know but I think I know the answer already. I think I still wouldnt be able to say that one was better than the other.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

As a Dazzo fan, I remember awhile ago when all the excitement was going on about the Trance system. Both Trance and Dazzo have their origins from the old FRAP. People wanted to know how those two compared. So I bought a used one and put it into a GS Mini and I had a Dazzo in another GS Mini. Both of course were similar. I just chose to stick with the passive Dazzos. Since then, Sunnaudio products hit the market and the onboard tone driver made the Dazzo better. So now all my guitars have an onboard preamp from Sunnaudio. These comparisons are sometimes fun to do. I have bought a lot of gear just for kicks. Maybe I will get inspired to try a Schatten and then the world will know but I think I know the answer already. I think I still wouldnt be able to say that one was better than the other.

Honestly, if I were you, I would just stick with the Dazzo and not worry about experimenting. It is fun but only to a point. I want a pickup that I am super happy with and I can't tell you how many I have tried. The HFN is probably going to be that pickup for me with the Tonedexter.

As a comparison though, I did have the Amulet M for a while and between it and the HFN, I prefer the HFN. It just has a much fuller, warmer and woodier tone. I still argue that the Amulet M has a signature presence that I hear in almost every demo and what I experienced using that pickup live. I just don't love that tone.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

You've got to admit this is the only place in the world where you could ask this question and reasonably expect someone to have done it! And still cheaper than a decent psychologist...

Hilarious! And disturbingly accurate.

[GuitarLuva]

I agree with Petty if I had a guitar that already had some sort of superglued pickup in it I would probably leave it as is. I would certainly recommend the Schatten HFN over anything else though for it's tone and ease of install. It's hard to imagine someone not being able to install this pickup on their own.

[martingitdave]

Dazzo, K&K, and Schatten HFN are all very nice bridge plate installed peizo based pickup systems.

Dazzo and HFN have some advantages in that some of the piezo tranducer(s) are offset from the bridge plate, introducing some indirect sound and a sense of "air".

The K&K has some advantage of being the lightest, very easy to place, and a relatively permanent install not affected by heat or moisture. I'm also very competent with installing and removing this system so I am comfortable with it.

In rare instances, some of the tape applied systems can come loose in the heat and humidity. They are easily reapplied, however.

Dazzo seems to be an excellent compromise with a glue install and three dimensional sensing of the "air". The only thing that's deterred me from installing a Dazzo system is my lack of experience. I don't know what to listen for while fine tuning location and waiting for the epoxy to setup.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

In rare instances, some of the tape applied systems can come loose in the heat and humidity. They are easily reapplied, however.

Dazzo seems to be an excellent compromise with a glue install and three dimensional sensing of the "air". The only thing that's deterred me from installing a Dazzo system is my lack of experience. I don't know what to listen for while fine tuning location and waiting for the epoxy to setup.

Not to intentionally disagree with you but having installed my own pickups for years I have used glue and tape before. It wasn't until I ordered a Schatten that I tried a putty install (even though I used the tape first). I personally think the putty is better than all install methods as it provides excellent vibration transfer, allows for placement tweaking if you don't get it right, easily removable and with the bond it makes to the soundboard I don't think it will ever come off on its own. I think the putty is the best compromise of all the methods. This is of course my own experience and opinion but that putty they provide is really amazing stuff and they give you lots. I bet I have enough left to install another 20 pickups, not even kidding.

[Charmed Life Picks]

I believe the Dazzo is based on the same old FRAP system that Trance uses. If that's the case, I'd be pleasantly surprised (actually, shocked) if it sounded as good. I'd love to the save the money, if it's even close.

I first heard the Trance rig at a live Jackson Browne show in 2006 and was immediately floored. I now have it in two different Eastmans, a dread and an OM.

Living in SoCal, I'm lucky to have my choice of some of the best luthiers in the country, maybe on the planet. I was able to hook up with Bill Asher, in Venice, who does all of JB's installs. When I picked up the first one, he plugged it into the board and it was -- WOAH! I'd never heard amplified acoustic bass like that in my life.

It's still my fave. I paid a lot of coin for these, but I've been a tone chaser for over forty years and I'm close to happy.

scott memmer