Beware the pickup “trap.”

[sunnaudio]

I want to chime in and just say that I enjoy playing through a nicely dialed in SBT pickup when placed optimally in a guitar. I use different picks for the plugged in use to round out any harsh piezo tendencies.

There’s lots of neat sounds you can get that a mic will not get.
Particularly the subharmonic frequencies that extend can really transform the guitar into something more. Even if I engage high pass filter, there’s some nice things that happen.
If you’ve seen Neil Young play live, you’ll know what I’m talking about.

Also, for recording I’ll blend almost 50% of the pickup with the mic. If I was using a ust, probably only blend no more than 10%

All this to say that, if the pickup sounds really nice on the particular guitar it’s in, the window opens up quite a bit.

Marc

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Dave what have you done. Keep the can of worms closed!

LOL, I was thinking about some threads I was reading and my recent pickup experiences. I get caught in the pickup trap like everyone else.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by archerscreek

2) Pickups are "falsely advertised" (phrase used loosely) in some Youtube reviews as sounding great when the great tone is actually coming through the still active mic, often positioned right in front of the player. Indeed, some reviewers properly cut the mic and isolate the pickup, but those are the minority in the videos I've seen.

This is a pet peeve of mine, I see it a lot. It's fairly easy to tell just by the sound, since some of the demos I see sound a *lot* better than I know the pickup actually sounds. I suspect reviewers aren't trying to deceive, they just don't realize that even a tiny bleed from a vocal mic is enough to make a pickup sound a lot better.

The same challenge happens when you audition a pickup at home - unless you are playing so loud that you absolutely can't hear the direct guitar sound (in which case, the neighbors are probably calling :-) ), you're being fooled by hearing a blend of the direct guitar and pickup. Even knowing this, I've caught myself when auditioning a new pickup - plug it in, play a little, and "wow, this thing sounds good". Then I record it or play back thru a looper, and it's "uh-oh, what happened?". This is one reason I try to remember to almost always audition pickups and do things like tweak EQ and so on with a looper, so I'm hearing the actual pickup, not a blend of natural sound+pickup.

I’ve been, and perhaps still am, in the pickup trap. I’ve tried numerous high end guitars with numerous pickups from all the main manufacturers and I’ve been incredibly disappointed until I bought a Maton — the moment I plugged one in I was in heaven—so I’ve now got three.

Anyway, at the moment I’m trying to to get my Atkin 43 (a Gibson J45 replica) working in a live environment so at the moment it’s got a Fishman REB and I have just bought a Grace Alix. Well, I’m still not happy and this is probably the end of the line for me.

Back to the Maton. Well put simply, for me, they just work beautifully and I cannot honestly understand why. The piezo arrangement is obviously different and the mic too. I’m going to stop trying with my other guitars and use them for recording and pure enjoyment, but for live work I’m sticking with the Maton and if only their AP5 pro could be installed in other guitars.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This is a pet peeve of mine, I see it a lot. It's fairly easy to tell just by the sound, since some of the demos I see sound a *lot* better than I know the pickup actually sounds. I suspect reviewers aren't trying to deceive, they just don't realize that even a tiny bleed from a vocal mic is enough to make a pickup sound a lot better.

The same challenge happens when you audition a pickup at home - unless you are playing so loud that you absolutely can't hear the direct guitar sound (in which case, the neighbors are probably calling :-) ), you're being fooled by hearing a blend of the direct guitar and pickup. Even knowing this, I've caught myself when auditioning a new pickup - plug it in, play a little, and "wow, this thing sounds good". Then I record it or play back thru a looper, and it's "uh-oh, what happened?". This is one reason I try to remember to almost always audition pickups and do things like tweak EQ and so on with a looper, so I'm hearing the actual pickup, not a blend of natural sound+pickup.

That's very true. (No doubt since you are the resident expert on the subject.) I'll add that recording and amplifying can produce wildly different results. Some systems which sound poor recorded can sound quite usable through a PA, and vice verse.

The looper is a great idea to record the signal and allow you to audition it through the PA system at stage volume.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

…This is one reason I try to remember to almost always audition pickups and do things like tweak EQ and so on with a looper, so I'm hearing the actual pickup, not a blend of natural sound+pickup.

HI Doug

I started using a looper to check the PA in the room sound years ago, when I realized that nobody who was going to gigs with me plays my guitars in remotely the same fashion I do.

So having someone else play while I go out to the room to check out the sound left so much to be desired! Then it hit me that using a looper would allow me to record a couple-three minutes of different styles and volumes and go chat with the sound guy as we listened together.

I agree with your thoughts about how misleading recordings can be. You told me that 15 years ago when I was considering switching pickup systems and was listening to the samples on your site.

I so appreciate your involvement and wisdom in the forum, sir.

[Monsum]

Some good points were made here, how we sometimes get deceived when evaluating pickup systems.
I'll add another one, in YouTube videos you can often see someone flatpicking or strumming very gently which produce a good sound but might not work with heavy strumming.

[Skip Ellis]

I learned to play guitar because I really like the sound of the guitar - I don't want it to sound like something else. A pure, sweet acoustic guitar tone through a good mic is as good as it gets.

[lovgren]

Whoever invented the piezo transducer has additionally spawned an entire industry of magic boxes claiming to fix the tone they produce.

Finally kicking all piezo-based pickups to the curb was a happy day for me, indeed.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by lovgren

Whoever invented the piezo transducer has additionally spawned an entire industry of magic boxes claiming to fix the tone they produce.

Finally kicking all piezo-based pickups to the curb was a happy day for me, indeed.

Agreed, but what's left? A mic? Magnetic?

[Skip Ellis]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Agreed, but what's left? A mic? Magnetic?

It's called a 'microphone'. Check out the Ocean Way Audio RM1-B

[lovgren]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Agreed, but what's left? A mic? Magnetic?

Magnetic for me. It's admittedly imperfect. But it facilitates amplification of what I'm playing without creating issues when playing in a live environment that I can't completely control - no feedback (this is HUGE for me), no boominess, no harshness, no piezo quack.

When playing at an open mic, jam, etc, I don't need to bring or fiddle with extra gear or relay specific EQ instructions to the sound guy. Plug-and-play signal that sounds decent without much adjustment. Plug in, turn up my monitor, tell the bass player to go ahead and give 'er, and let's play.

[Silly Moustache]

I bought a used Collings dread with a K&K system fitted incl. mic, and pre-amp.

I plugged it in, twice, I think.

At one time I thought it a good idea to have a couple of K&Ks fitted in my Martin 12 string and another collings 6 string.

I have an upcoming solo concert coming up and the club have been bothering me to plug in. I've convinced tem that I can carry an audience of their size (200-250?) with just the one large condenser mic.

[GuitarLuva]

I was in the pickup trap for years. I consider myself out of it now.

[Andy Howell]

All pickups do suck (some more than others) but sometimes a mic isn’t practical. And that’s when the Tonedexter can make life so much nicer!