Hardware Effects in Logic

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

That was waaay nice of you to take the time to create this demo Doug! Have you ever mixed in Pro Tools?

Haven't really kept up with ProTools. I've used some early LE versions, and run into it in some studios (where I only needed to watch). But I never wanted to commit to the hardware - which I know is no longer entirely necessary.

[Rick Shepherd]

I have been fiddling around with the Profire 610, and I can't understand why this problem exists. Why would I be getting effects when I bounce to a wav file without using any sends? This is so odd.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Haven't really kept up with ProTools. I've used some early LE versions, and run into it in some studios (where I only needed to watch). But I never wanted to commit to the hardware - which I know is no longer entirely necessary.

You know I have no strong opinions about either platform being inherently better one way or the other. I've worked for both companies and am certified in both. Some days I shake my head in marvel as to what Logic can do other days it's Pro Tools. I've just noticed (in small snippets) the way you work and it seems PT fits those smaller track count, smaller FX instantiations type sessions better than Logic. One intangible I never hear mentioned in DAW comparisons is Pro Tools is just plain easier to see. Now part of that might be "old guy" problems on my part but a reality non the less. As I've mentioned before Logic's mixer especially the aux send control (which is part in parcel to this thread) is VERY difficult to maneuver.

Nothing substantial to my observation and not suggesting you change your DAW of choice. Just makin a comment for conversation

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

I have been fiddling around with the Profire 610, and I can't understand why this problem exists. Why would I be getting effects when I bounce to a wav file without using any sends? This is so odd.

I would guess that your Profire software is routing the output thru the reverb. Basically, your routing software has "sends" that are being used.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

I have been fiddling around with the Profire 610, and I can't understand why this problem exists. Why would I be getting effects when I bounce to a wav file without using any sends? This is so odd.

I know I'm beating a way, WAY dead horse here Rick so I'll only ask this 1 more time

Are you somehow forced to use this software? I honestly see utterly and absolutely nothing here by way of a positive. Nothing. Lots and lost of Logic users (myself included) get along famously without interconnect software. I know for sure you are NOT forced to use Motu's audio desk stuff if you choose not to. I gotta believe the same is true for the ProFire.

What I do see and have seen (going back to your Reaper days) is a piece of software (the ProFire software) that serves no apparent positive purpose and continues, almost endlessly, to befuddle you as well as make your life miserable.

What am I'm missing here??

[moon]

Sound card mixer software is pretty important if you need to set up different monitor mixes, or external send/returns.

@Rick

I think Doug might be onto something. If you turn down all the input faders in the 610 mixer, none of the inputs (including the Lexicon if it's turned on) will get routed to any of the outputs. Remember the 610 mixer software is for monitoring only. All it does is mix hardware ins and software outs into hardware outs. The input faders don't affect the signal level heard by the DAW, just the monitoring signal, ie the signal sent to a pair of hardware outs. You don't need any of the 610 mixer input faders turned up unless you're doing direct monitoring.

[Rick Shepherd]

moon,

If I turn down all the input faders, the result is not only no sound, but no signal from the lexicon into the aux channel in Logic. The only control that allows me to get the lex effects into the aux channel is a software return 1 and 2 in the software. If I turn the level up, I see the aux effects channel receiving a signal.

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

I know I'm beating a way, WAY dead horse here Rick so I'll only ask this 1 more time

Are you somehow forced to use this software? I honestly see utterly and absolutely nothing here by way of a positive. Nothing. Lots and lost of Logic users (myself included) get along famously without interconnect software. I know for sure you are NOT forced to use Motu's audio desk stuff if you choose not to. I gotta believe the same is true for the ProFire.

What I do see and have seen (going back to your Reaper days) is a piece of software (the ProFire software) that serves no apparent positive purpose and continues, almost endlessly, to befuddle you as well as make your life miserable.

What am I'm missing here??

Joseph, There is no way around having to use the software in this case. The question is, what other option(s) do I have? Would an outboard mixer with firewire do the trick?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Joseph, There is no way around having to use the software in this case. The question is, what other option(s) do I have? Would an outboard mixer with firewire do the trick?

I don't see how a mixer would help. I think you just need to figure your software out. I read the RME TotalMix manual about 20 times before it sunk in!

[moon]

In the 610 mixer, each hardware output pair has a tab with "input faders" on the left and "software returns" on the right. Let's assume you're not doing any direct monitoring: all the input faders in all the tabs should be set to zero.

TAB Analogue Out 1&2

Assuming your monitors are connected to hardware outs 1&2, turn up the software return faders on whichever pair of channels the DAW master outs are on (probably software returns 1&2, confusingly numbered 7&8 along the bottom of the screen). There's a tab master volume on the right: turn that up too.

TAB Analogue Out 3&4

Everything zero.

TAB Analogue Out 5&6

Everything zero.

TAB Analogue Out 7&8

Everything zero.

TAB SPDIF Out L/R

Assuming you've got the Lexicon connected on SPDIF, turn up the software return channels you're using to send a signal out for processing. Let's say that's software returns 3&4 - they should be numbered the same in the DAW. All other faders should be zero'd - except for the tab master volume on the right, of course.

In the DAW, set up sends to channels 3&4 - straight out to the Lexicon.

You can receive the Lexicon output on DAW channels 9 & 10 (I think). I'd probably create a stereo bus in the DAW, connected to the DAW master outs, and feed the Lexicon output into the bus. You can also record the Lexicon output onto a normal track if you want, instead of using a bus.

I haven't got a 610, but I'm pretty sure that's what you need to do. With the 610 mixer set up like this, any problems you still have will be due to an error in the Logic routing - double check the sends really are connected to the correct channels.

The plus side of all this complexity is flexibility. The 610 mixer software allows you to create, on each pair of hardware outs, a custom mix of any hardware inputs, and any computer audio channels. For example, you can send DAW master outs to hardware outs 1&2, have a separate cue mix with direct monitoring for a performer on hardware outs 3&4, and send audio to an external processor on yet another pair of hardware outs.

The downside is it can be quite confusing...

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by moon

In the 610 mixer, each hardware output pair has a tab with "input faders" on the left and "software returns" on the right. Let's assume you're not doing any direct monitoring: all the input faders in all the tabs should be set to zero.

TAB Analogue Out 1&2

Assuming your monitors are connected to hardware outs 1&2, turn up the software return faders on whichever pair of channels the DAW master outs are on (probably software returns 1&2, confusingly numbered 7&8 along the bottom of the screen). There's a tab master volume on the right: turn that up too.

TAB Analogue Out 3&4

Everything zero.

TAB Analogue Out 5&6

Everything zero.

TAB Analogue Out 7&8

Everything zero.

TAB SPDIF Out L/R

Assuming you've got the Lexicon connected on SPDIF, turn up the software return channels you're using to send a signal out for processing. Let's say that's software returns 3&4 - they should be numbered the same in the DAW. All other faders should be zero'd - except for the tab master volume on the right, of course.

In the DAW, set up sends to channels 3&4 - straight out to the Lexicon.

You can receive the Lexicon output on DAW channels 9 & 10 (I think). I'd probably create a stereo bus in the DAW, connected to the DAW master outs, and feed the Lexicon output into the bus. You can also record the Lexicon output onto a normal track if you want, instead of using a bus.

I haven't got a 610, but I'm pretty sure that's what you need to do. With the 610 mixer set up like this, any problems you still have will be due to an error in the Logic routing - double check the sends really are connected to the correct channels.

The plus side of all this complexity is flexibility. The 610 mixer software allows you to create, on each pair of hardware outs, a custom mix of any hardware inputs, and any computer audio channels. For example, you can send DAW master outs to hardware outs 1&2, have a separate cue mix with direct monitoring for a performer on hardware outs 3&4, and send audio to an external processor on yet another pair of hardware outs.

The downside is it can be quite confusing...

Originally Posted by moon

Assuming your monitors are connected to hardware outs 1&2.

Yes that is correct!

Originally Posted by moon

Assuming you've got the Lexicon connected on SPDIF, turn up the software return channels you're using to send a signal out for processing. Let's say that's software returns 3&4 - they should be numbered the same in the DAW. All other faders should be zero'd - except for the tab master volume on the right, of course.

Yes, it is connected via SPDIF. As far as turning up the software return channels used to send a signal out for processing, how do I know which ones to choose? Shall I just use 3&4, as you stated?

Originally Posted by moon

In the DAW, set up sends to channels 3&4 - straight out to the Lexicon.

Do you mean sends from each track, two guitar tracks in this case? Because if I click on send in the track, the only option I see for where to send are bus 1,2,3,4,5,...etc.

Originally Posted by moon

You can receive the Lexicon output on DAW channels 9 & 10 (I think). I'd probably create a stereo bus in the DAW, connected to the DAW master outs, and feed the Lexicon output into the bus.

You lost me at this point. I do have a stereo bus set up to receive the lex processed signal with the I/O insert.

Originally Posted by moon

You can also record the Lexicon output onto a normal track if you want, instead of using a bus.

This is starting to look like a good option at this point, but I'd like to pursue your original line of thought first.

Thanks moon! You have my full attention at this point.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

As far as turning up the software return channels used to send a signal out for processing, how do I know which ones to choose? Shall I just use 3&4, as you stated?

You just need to pick a couple of channels (software returns) which aren't being used for anything else. Any will do. The hardware SPDIF outs can receive audio from any software return simply by turning up the appropriate fader in the SPDIF tab.

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Do you mean sends from each track, two guitar tracks in this case? Because if I click on send in the track, the only option I see for where to send are bus 1,2,3,4,5,...etc.

I haven't used Logic so this is hard to explain. With my own DAW, a send can route audio around inside the DAW itself, out to other programs, or out to "system outs". The latter are the "software returns" you see in the 610 mixer. You should see something similar, ie a list of Logic tracks and buses, a list of inputs to other audio programs (if present), and a list of system outs.

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

You lost me at this point. I do have a stereo bus set up to receive the lex processed signal with the I/O insert.

That sounds right, in general, but I'd need a copy of Logic to run through the detail with you.

[Rick Shepherd]

I this case, with Logic, the sends are done via busses. If I create an aux channel strip, then I can send from a track to the aux bus. In my case, the auxiliary channel strip is labeled as bus 1. I use the "insert" with an "I/O" utility to insert the lex effects into the auxiliary channel strip. I am assuming this is where I route the sends from the tracks to this via "sends"?

My mixing panel looks pretty much the same as the image Doug posted on the first page, two guitar tracks with sends to an aux channel strip. The effects are routed from the lexicon to this auxiliary channel strip via the I/O insert. Doug has inserted the UAD EMT2

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

I am assuming this is where I route the sends from the tracks to this via "sends"?

Yes, in the I/O plugin, you can set the hardware channels that it uses for input and output. I'm having trouble following this with not knowing your system, but I'd think the 1st problem I'd want to solve is why you have reverb when you aren't using any sends. Take a project with no Aux bus, don't send anything using the bus send on a track. Do you hear reverb on the mix? If so, something is feeding sound to the reverb. Do you have some kind of meters on your software? Can you see what hardware channels are being sent a signal? I'd start with that.

[moon]

@Rick

OK let's stick to the setup in Doug's video.

I'm pretty sure I understand most of the details of the 610 mixer, but not Logic so I might have to hand you back to Doug here.

In the I/O insert, you should have a pop menu with a list of available outputs. I'm guessing you'll see something like "system out 1, system out 2" etc. Select 3 and 4.

In the 610 mixer, select the SPDIF tab and turn up the fader on software returns 3 & 4, and the master fader, but nothing else.

Back in Logic, and the I/O insert, select the SPDIF inputs. They probably won't be called "SPDIF" but something like "system in X, system in Y" etc. If you've got four analogue ins, the SPDIF L&R should be on "system in 5" and "system in 6" (not 9 and 10 like I said earlier). If you're not sure just try them all until you find the right ones.

Don't forget to run through all the 610 mixer tabs to make sure all the input faders are turned down.

Bedtime now but I'll be back tomorrow. If Doug can fix you up in logic, I think I can sort out the 610 mixer.