If piezos are so bad (for several people). . .

[Guitarplayer_PR]

. . . why are they still a thing among acoustic guitars? I'll probably answer my own question, but I get more accolades in terms of tone playing my "piezo" acoustics than from playing my guitar with an LR Baggs Anthem (which I love and, curiously, uses a piezo) or my Expression System-equipped acoustic.

[Petty1818]

Many reasons.. price, familiarity, ease of installation and use etc. AGF is a small community. Most players I know don’t know there’s anything better out there and don’t even mind the tone of a piezo.

[Cuki79]

First it is cheap to make
Second it Is reliable
Third it cuts Through the mix
Fourth it is somehow balanced
Firth it is feedback resistant
At last it requires few modifications on the guitar

It just does not sound like your guitar acoustically... and that bugs some of us (including me).

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Many reasons.. price, familiarity, ease of installation and use etc. AGF is a small community. Most players I know don’t know there’s anything better out there and don’t even mind the tone of a piezo.

Hmmm, a magnetic pickup or an SBT are actually easier to install (well, at least the magnetic pickup, but you get the point).

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

First it is cheap to make
Second it Is reliable
Third it cuts Through the mix
Fourth it is somehow balanced
Firth it is feedback resistant
At last it requires few modifications on the guitar

It just does not sound like your guitar acoustically... and that bugs some of us (including me).

I can find that as true in many cases, although I think it can sound much better with a good EQ and preamp.

The selling point for me is one of the most important and many times snubbed, it's that it cuts through the mix better. Imagine having the "best" amplification system that NOBODY can hear or identify. That's why I keep using my O's

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

Hmmm, a magnetic pickup or an SBT are actually easier to install (well, at least the magnetic pickup, but you get the point).

Depends on the SBT. Most take experimentation which causes inconsistencies with guitars. Throw in a UST and the manufacturer can know the results. A magnetic is easier to install but many people don’t like them and I feel as though most guitar brands don’t want to put them in as they hurt the cosmetic appeal. Also, with SBT’s you need to have a bit more knowledge with feedback and eq. I remember Larry Fishman saying that 90% of customers want a simple solution. That’s why with some of their systems, they have the capability to add more bells and whistles but often don’t because people find them to be too confusing.

[Br1ck]

There are no bad piezos, just people who don't know how to use them. The much maligned Under saddle pickup has one very useful property, it is more feedback resistant. That is why there is one in many dual pickup systems. But on it's own with an improper impedance mismatch, they can be horrible.

As a co host of an open mic, here it what I see over and over. People buy a guitar and ask what pickups should they put in it. Because every store on the planet carries K&Ks, they get those. Then they show up at open mic and plug into whatever the open mic gives them. Many times this is a quarter inch jack going into a mixing board with an 800 ohm input impedance. Never mind the K&K manual says you need a pre with a 1 MEG ohm input impedance. See, it's the nature of a piezo to be harsh and icepicky when the input impedance is too low. This is no fault of the pickup. A 1 meg impedance smooths out the sound. A UST with still be too trebley, but that's just the ticket in a loud band.

So I got tired of listening to $4000 guitars with K&Ks sound bad and had SunnAudio build a box for two inputs and even the cheapest piezo equipped guitar sounds at least decent and my headaches went away. Now if I could just get newbies to check their batteries on that guitar they bought four years ago. But that's another issue. Piezos can be very good, see Dazzo.

Probably the best system I've heard that came in a guitar is the Cole Clark three way. it has a mic, a Soundboard transducer and an undersaddle pickup. Ready for any gig.

[varmonter]

I think it's that very inconsistency that steered me away from piezos all together.
The constant tweaking and tone chasing
only to plug in at a gig and be disappointed
again. They work .Dont get me wrong
Just that I crave more stability in my sound.
I want to know it will sound good or at least
Ok when I show up at a gig and plug into whatever. Piezos were always hit or miss.
Unless I drag a plethora of outboard gear
with me. It's not a lack of know how beleive me I've run the gambit
Of wizbang boxes.. like mentioned in every thread even comments in this very thread like " i had sunnaudio build me a box" or " with the
Proper eq and preamp" i can get it to sound ok. It just shows the constant headaches piezos seem to muster.
Sure they are cheap. Which is probably why manufacturers prefer them..but at what cost. A sunnaudio ms2 is 800.
I bought a felix for a grand and still use it. Because its sweet.
But my 140 dollar 1 mgohm kk pure xlr sounds pretty good with my
current setup as well.
I get why manufacturers dont give you sh pickups. They are not cosmetically pretty. And are not proprietary..or they are too easily
removed. Piezos are more aesthetic and most folks wont take them
out ( present company excluded)
Heres an interesting article
By none other than Seymour Duncan.
Kind of explains why I dont favor piezo pups
Anymore. It's the exponential response i dont
like i guess.
https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/l...gnetic-pickups
Then of course there is that quack..
.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

There are no bad piezos, just people who don't know how to use them. The much maligned Under saddle pickup has one very useful property, it is more feedback resistant. That is why there is one in many dual pickup systems. But on it's own with an improper impedance mismatch, they can be horrible.

As a co host of an open mic, here it what I see over and over. People buy a guitar and ask what pickups should they put in it. Because every store on the planet carries K&Ks, they get those. Then they show up at open mic and plug into whatever the open mic gives them. Many times this is a quarter inch jack going into a mixing board with an 800 ohm input impedance. Never mind the K&K manual says you need a pre with a 1 MEG ohm input impedance. See, it's the nature of a piezo to be harsh and icepicky when the input impedance is too low. This is no fault of the pickup. A 1 meg impedance smooths out the sound. A UST with still be too trebley, but that's just the ticket in a loud band.

So I got tired of listening to $4000 guitars with K&Ks sound bad and had SunnAudio build a box for two inputs and even the cheapest piezo equipped guitar sounds at least decent and my headaches went away. Now if I could just get newbies to check their batteries on that guitar they bought four years ago. But that's another issue. Piezos can be very good, see Dazzo.

Probably the best system I've heard that came in a guitar is the Cole Clark three way. it has a mic, a Soundboard transducer and an undersaddle pickup. Ready for any gig.

You probably made the best argument for why piezo systems (UST) are still favoured by many, especially guitar manufactuers. They are predictable and easy to set up. Can you imagine if Martin for example switched over to the K&K? Most players would show up at a show without a proper di, the pickup would sound terrible and feedback and Martin would receive numerous complaints. That's why UST's continue to be the go to source. Honestly it would be the same with the Dazzo. You still need to know what each pickup is compable of but I bet if a major brand switched over to Dazzo pickups, musicians would be getting feedback problems which would equal unhappy customers.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

. . . why are they still a thing among acoustic guitars? I'll probably answer my own question, but I get more accolades in terms of tone playing my "piezo" acoustics than from playing my guitar with an LR Baggs Anthem (which I love and, curiously, uses a piezo) or my Expression System-equipped acoustic.

The Taylor Expression System 2 is piezo-based as is the Ovation OCP1 pickup, as is the K & K Pure Mini, as is the Trance and Dazzo systems. What varies is the method of application of the piezo crystals: some are compressed as in a UST pickup and can sound quacky but the Ovation pickup is a bending-type piezo system although it's a UST because the piezo crystals are not compressed between the saddle and top. Others are free to bend because they're attached to the bottom of the bridge plate and don't usually have the quackiness of most UST pickups. The method of application of piezo crystals significantly determines how they sound and how well they can resist feedback.

[Rudy4]

I up to about a dozen K&K Pure Mini installs. I'll think about switching when I end up with one that doesn't end up sounding good.

[rockabilly69]

The piezo UST in the B-Band systems I like (especially with combined with their AST soundboard transducer), has always been my favorite. recently I've been turning my Genzler Pro Array or Schertler JAM 200 right at me, where I plug the DI out to the house system and listen to both at amps at really pretty low levels, and I still like what I hear much better than any other pickup I've used. I've used K&Ks, every Baggs pickup, Trance Amulet M, every Fishman pickup out there, and just about every well known magnetic available. I've also used some pretty heavy duty preamps with these pickups, and I stil love the B-bands
which I bought a few NOS systems as back-ups as they are no longer available.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Piezos can be very good, see Dazzo.

I assume the OP meant an undersaddle pickup. People say "piezo", meaning UST, all the time, even here on AGF, not realizing that K&Ks, Dazzo, Trance, etc, are also "piezo" technology.

I'd say most people have a UST because that's what came in the guitar. That changed a little when Taylor went to a mag+SBT system (ES1), and now the ES2 is a "beside the saddle" variation of a UST. Many guitarists who don't spend their time reading AGF and tweaking their setups don't even know what pickup is in their guitar.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

First it is cheap to make
Second it Is reliable
Third it cuts Through the mix
Fourth it is somehow balanced
Firth it is feedback resistant
At last it requires few modifications on the guitar

It just does not sound like your guitar acoustically... and that bugs some of us (including me).

All true, IMO, which is why many of us use some sort of preamp, a ToneDexter in my case, to make the plugged-in guitar sound more like a mic'd guitar. Also, to correct impedance mismatch between the pickup and the sound system input.

To me, the big advantage is that piezo pickups require little guitar modification, other than drilling the end pin hole to accommodate the jack. Also, no battery in the guitar. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people at open mics find out they had dead batteries when they got up on stage.

[leew3]

The advantages and popularity of UST pickups has been well expressed already. I would only add that the vast majority of our listening audiences have no idea or could care less about the elusive 'tone' about which we obsess endlessly on the AGF. YMMV, IMHO, EIEIO