My Taylor 712 12 Fret has Awful Tuners... How About Waverly?

[rpatkin]

One of the buttons broke off of my Taylor machines on my 322 12 fret on the first string change. Got a replacement likety-split from Taylor, but was a bit gunshy, so I ordered Waverlys, they were a drop in and have worked beautifully.

[raduray]

Originally Posted by Crashcup

I love my 712ce 12 Fret--except for the tuners. I've read the above thread and all I can say is that the tuners on my 712 slotted peghead feel more like ukulele tuners than guitar tuners.

I contacted my dealer regarding one particularly problematic tuner, the low E. It turned nearly a quarter turn before it engaged the cog that turned the shaft to tighten the string. I had to turn it past the set point then turn it back to set it. It reminded me of how one sets a pin in a piano when tuning it and was completely unlike any of my other guitar experiences with Taylor.

I sent a video to the dealer that demonstrated the problem and they sent it to Taylor. Taylor graciously sent me a replacement tuner, which I installed immediately. Two months later--same problem.

I have ordered two sets of Waverlys, one for my 712 ce 12 fret and one for my new 812ce 12 fret DLX. I "believe" the problem may lie in the gear ratio and have read too many good reviews of Waverlys to discount them.

What's interesting is that Taylor included the Waverly tuners in their First Edition revamped 814 guitars. The production models reverted to the standard Taylor tuners. The implication (at least to me) is that since Taylor's First Editions usually have all the bells and whistles, Taylor viewed the Waverlys as an upgrade over their stock tuners.

Anyway, I'm the first person to respond to this thread in over two years, so no one may ever read it. That will not deter me, however, from posting my experience for posterity once I've received the new tuners.

Cordially,

Bill

Bill, did you ever get those Waverly tuners? How'd they do on the 812CE-12 Fret?

[robj144]

Originally Posted by raduray

Bill, did you ever get those Waverly tuners? How'd they do on the 812CE-12 Fret?

Bill's last login was 5 months ago. You might want to email him instead.

[fazool]

I am only responding because some poor unsuspecting reader will stumble across this now-resurrected zombie thread.

Taylor slothead tuners are excellent. One thing that more expensive tuners don't have is a tapered center which keeps the strings centered and reduces slop in the windings. I've never yet seen an expensive replacement set of tuners that have this feature. This is one of the most beneficial features of a tuner.

I've had no problem with the gear mesh or mechanical quality at all.

I didn't like the look of the steel screw so changed mine, but other than that I find them terrific.

(I've owned slotheads for almost forty years)

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by fazool

Taylor slothead tuners are excellent. One thing that more expensive tuners don't have is a tapered center which keeps the strings centered and reduces slop in the windings. I've never yet seen an expensive replacement set of tuners that have this feature. This is one of the most beneficial features of a tuner.

That is a clever feature.
For amusement this is what happens when you put tuners designed for a solid headstock on a slotted headstock..... ouch!

[rpatkin]

Put Waverlys on my 322 12 fret after one of the buttons cracked and fell off ... Taylor replaced the tuner likety split, but I was fearful of the quality of them after that. The Waverlys were a drop in replacement. I got the Ebony set.

[Stanstep3]

Hi,

I hope this helps somebody. I was recently thinking about replacing the tuners in my slot head Taylor 612ce 12 fret, as they would sometimes stick and slip.

Eventually I realized that the source of the issue was the end of the shaft binding in the hole in the center of the headstock. A little powdered graphite in each one and they are much, much smoother now.

I’m happy that I didn’t spend a lot of money and that the instrument still has its original parts. And I do like the feature that Fazool points out—the tapered part that keeps the string windings together.

Hope this helps,
Stan

[raduray]

Originally Posted by fazool

I am only responding because some poor unsuspecting reader will stumble across this now-resurrected zombie thread.

Taylor slothead tuners are excellent. One thing that more expensive tuners don't have is a tapered center which keeps the strings centered and reduces slop in the windings. I've never yet seen an expensive replacement set of tuners that have this feature. This is one of the most beneficial features of a tuner.

I've had no problem with the gear mesh or mechanical quality at all.

I didn't like the look of the steel screw so changed mine, but other than that I find them terrific.

(I've owned slotheads for almost forty years)

The reason I resurrected this thread is that I'm seeing some slop (backlash) in my 2016 812CE 12 Fret. Much more than what I had with my old 312CE. Here's a video I took that shows it: https://youtu.be/tC_qwMo7mZ4 . The video was taken with the string detuned so there was no string tension. I tried this on several different tuners on this guitar and they were all the same. Tightening the screw on the end of the screw gear did not make a difference.

I reached out to Taylor and their response was "Since you're seeing the same thing on all the tuners I'd have to say that's just the way they are."

Is this slop excessive or am I being unrealistic in my expectation?

I reached out to StewMac and they indicated the Waverlys would have significantly less backlash, so I'm considering getting getting these http://tinyurl.com/y8skmgod. Don't know if it's worth the extra $30 to go from nickel to gold finish.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by raduray

The reason I resurrected this thread is that I'm seeing some slop (backlash) in my 2016 812CE 12 Fret. Much more than what I had with my old 312CE. Here's a video I took that shows it: https://youtu.be/tC_qwMo7mZ4 . The video was taken with the string detuned so there was no string tension. I tried this on several different tuners on this guitar and they were all the same. Tightening the screw on the end of the screw gear did not make a difference.

I reached out to Taylor and their response was "Since you're seeing the same thing on all the tuners I'd have to say that's just the way they are."

Is this slop excessive or am I being unrealistic in my expectation?

I reached out to StewMac and they indicated the Waverlys would have significantly less backlash, so I'm considering getting getting these http://tinyurl.com/y8skmgod. Don't know if it's worth the extra $30 to go from nickel to gold finish.

This is a good perspective. One of the mistakes a lot of people make is mis-attributing tuning issues with tuning machines. Unless broken or made wrong a tuner can't slip or lose tuning tension even when sloppy like yours. Once the string tension is applied any movement is already taken up.

What backlash can do, is make it more difficult to tune and adjust because you have this precision knob you are turning that isn't responding with precision.

The quality of gear cuts and overall workmanship will make a big difference on the backlash and that's where high end tuners are better.

For the Taylors, you have to decide if that hand-feel and precision while tuning is worth it to you. For me, I rate the tapered shaft as a better benefit so I like them.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by raduray

Is this slop excessive or am I being unrealistic in my expectation?

I reached out to StewMac and they indicated the Waverlys would have significantly less backlash, so I'm considering getting getting these http://tinyurl.com/y8skmgod. Don't know if it's worth the extra $30 to go from nickel to gold finish.

Considering those gears are only intended for a low speed/low load application, I don't think it's excessive. If that were a hypoid gearset in an automotive differential, I'd say it was cause for grave concern...

...however, if that were the case you wouldn't need to ask, because that differential would howl and whine like CRAZY at any speed over 10mph.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by fazool

This is a good perspective. One of the mistakes a lot of people make is mis-attributing tuning issues with tuning machines. Unless broken or made wrong a tuner can't slip or lose tuning tension even when sloppy like yours. Once the string tension is applied any movement is already taken up.

Good point.

One of the features of a worm-drive gearing arrangement is it won't allow back-driving. On a tuning machine, the tuner button shaft can drive the capstan, but the capstan cannot drive the tuner button shaft.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Unlike with ordinary gear trains, the direction of transmission (input shaft vs output shaft) is not reversible when using large reduction ratios, due to the greater friction involved between the worm and worm-wheel, when usually a single start (one spiral) worm is used. This can be an advantage when it is desired to eliminate any possibility of the output driving the input.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worm_drive

[musicman1951]

My Taylor Classical tuners work fine. I think you got a bad set. I'm pretty sure Taylor will send you a new set.

[raduray]

According to Taylor, they switched to a different tuner mechanism last year that has a "tighter feel". Unfortunately, the new mechanism has three connected tuners per side, so it is not a drop in replacement, but the old screw holes would be covered, so it would work cosmetically.

Here's a link to the new tuners: https://www.taylorguitars.com/taylor...elslot-head6st

Personally, I don't want to have to drill new holes, so I'll probably go with the Waverlys.

[lt20dbl]

I have five guitars that I use in my work. All came with Waverlys. Never had a problem with any of them. My Collings 12 fret is 20 years old. Martin uses Waverlys on most of their guitars from Vintage series on up. Yes, Waverlys are expensive but in my opinion, there are none better.

[Bjbny]

The tuners on my 612ce 12 Fret had been VERY stiff and difficult to adjust (especially for small tweaks) from the time I purchased the guitar. I did call Taylor and was told this was “normal.” I put up with it for two years, but recently brought it to a luthier I trust (who is an authorized Taylor repair shop) to fix another problem. We discussed the tuners and he agreed that they were very poor. We switched them out for Waverly’s that are much better!!