Super Bowl LIII Thread

[Nyghthawk]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

That would be Vince Lombardi.

Yes. Ditto. There is a reason it is called the Lombardi trophy.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

That would be Vince Lombardi.

Might have turned out that way if he’d lived long enough. But his run was basically about 6-7 years from their first NFL Championship in ‘61 through the second Super Bowl, in ‘67. For sure, he won 5 championships in that time, but the NFL was a much smaller league then. Belichek has sustained a consistent level of excellence for closing on 20 years now in a much more competitive league - that’s just astounding. Maybe if he’d stayed healthy he’d have turned the Redskins into something and maybe he’d have a 20 year record that would rival or surpass what Belichek has done. But as Boomer Tatum famously said, “What coulda happened did”. And Vince didn’t live long enough.

I grew up as a Colts fan in Baltimore during Lombardi’s Green Bay run. I saw a few classic Colt-Packer games in the old Memorial Stadium. The Pack ruined a few seasons for my little boy heart... They were the best in their day, overwhelmingly so. Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh and Tom Landry are also deserving of big props. But 17 years at or very near the top is just another level... I won’t see it again in my lifetime - I don’t know if anyone will.

-Ray

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Nyghthawk

Yes. Ditto. There is a reason it is called the Lombardi trophy.

Was Heisman the best college football player who ever lived? Lombardi was the best there’d been when they were looking for a name for that thing and he’d just died when they named it for him. He’s been surpassed.

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by raysachs

It absolutely was. I'm an old defensive back from my high school playing days and I love watching good defense, and there was a lot of it in that game, given how good both offenses were against everyone else all year. That said, all of those three and outs and punts don't make for a very entertaining game, so I get why folks were bored with it and I was at moments too. I was watching with my wife, daughter, and my daughter's fiancé, and they were all ready to turn it off at halftime. I kind of dug it anyway, but I'm strange that way. I love watching a good 1-0 pitcher's dual in baseball too...

And, yeah, Brady's a great guy to have in crunch time. He deserves a lot of credit. To restate very briefly what I've said before, I can easily call Belichek the GOAT when it comes to NFL coaches. I'll call Brady one of the best quarterbacks of all time, but I don't believe in calling a player a GOAT, and particularly wouldn't base it on championships. As great as Brady is, and he IS great, I think there are for sure another half dozen or more guys in the history of the game who, in the same system with Belicheck as their coach, would have done just as well. From the very recent past, I'd put Peyton and Rodgers in that group, and possibly Brees. And going back through my football watching life (which started in the mid-60s in earnest), I'd add Elway, Montana, Staubach, and Unitas for sure, and maybe Young, Kelly, possibly a couple others. Guys like Favre and Stabler and Dandy Don were great and a lot of fun to watch, but were far too erratic to come close to consider in any GOAT discussion - Belicheck would have cut or traded any of them really fast. But basing GOAT rankings on championships just tells way too small a part of the story. I mean Terry Bradshaw and Bob Greise each won multiple championships and were fine quarterbacks, but they couldn't shine Aaron Rodger's shoes, and he only has one, which took a heroic effort on his part to overcome a mediocre team and not even mediocre coaching.

By my count, Brady threw two great passes in this Super Bowl. The one to Gronk near the goal line in crunch time, and an earlier wheel route down the right sideline, also to Gronk, that was dropped in there just about perfectly. He completed a lot to Edelman, but Edelman was sooooo open on most of those plays (unlike the KC games, where Brady had to make some really nice throws to hit him) that I attribute that mostly to coaching and Edelman's route running.

GREAT QB, but I believe Belichek and one of those other top QBs could have won just as many Super Bowls (with the possible exception of the Atlanta collapse, where Brady was just HUGE in keeping the pressure on). Whereas Brady playing for just about anyone else would be remembered as a really great QB, but nobody would be talking about him as a GOAT.

I realize most New England fans will disagree with this - one godlike figure isn't enough for you folks, you gotta have TWO! But I can say Brady is as good as anyone, but not better than a handful of other guys.

-Ray

Well I disagree. We do have two god-like creatures in our team.

You’re still giving Belichick most of the credit, and that’s quite unfair to Brady, which is the one making things happen. You’re saying that Brady is barely above average, and he would be in complete obscurity if he didn’t have Belichick. You’re switching your hate to a more passive-aggressive style, but it’s clearly there coming out.

Let’s use Jimmy G. as an example. With the Patriots, he had a decent run winning most games he played, especially when Brady was suspended. He then got traded to the 49rs, and won every single game for the rest of that season. Without Belichick, on a new team, he won games. I say he proved himself to be good as long as he stays healthy. And he is nowhere near Tom Brady.

Brady can take any team under any coach to the Super Bowl. His track record say so.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

You’re saying that Brady is barely above average, and he would be in complete obscurity if he didn’t have Belichick.

Look, I’ve clearly said Brady is one of the greatest QBs of all time. My specific words summing it up is the “Brady is as good as ANYONE (emphasis added), but not better than a handful of other guys”. I said if he’d played for anyone other than Belichek, he’d be remembered as a REALLY GREAT QB, (ie, as one of the very greatest EVER) just that nobody would be talking about him as a singular GOAT.

If what you got from that is that I think he’s “barely above average and would be in complete obscurity without Belichek” (those are your words, right?), there’s nothing I can write that you won’t take as a dis. I’m saying he is the equal of the handful of very best QB’s that have ever played the game. Just that I don’t think he’s head and shoulders above the very greatest ever. If you somehow read that as barely above average and as passive aggressive hate, there’s nothing I can say that you will understand any differently.

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by raysachs

Look, I’ve clearly said Brady is one of the greatest QBs of all time. My specific words summing it up is the “Brady is as good as ANYONE (emphasis added), but not better than a handful of other guys”. I said if he’d played for anyone other than Belichek, he’d be remembered as a REALLY GREAT QB, (ie, as one of the very greatest EVER) just that nobody would be talking about him as a singular GOAT.



If what you got from that is that I think he’s “barely above average and would be in complete obscurity without Belichek” (those are your words, right?), there’s nothing I can write that you won’t take as a dis. I’m saying he is the equal of the handful of very best QB’s that have ever played the game. Just that I don’t think he’s head and shoulders above the very greatest ever. If you somehow read that as barely above average and as passive aggressive hate, there’s nothing I can say that you will understand any differently.

Yes those are my words and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. My analysis of your post is after putting most of your Brady and Belichick posts in context.

Handful of guys better than Brady? That will always be debatable because you can’t compare different eras of football. But right now? He’s at the top.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

Yes those are my words and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. My analysis of your post is after putting most of your Brady and Belichick posts in context.

Handful of guys better than Brady? That will always be debatable because you can’t compare different eras of football. But right now? He’s at the top.

You’re doing it again - I never said a handful of guys better than Brady - I said a handful of guys (maybe slightly more than a handful, but around there) who I’d put at the same level. Who I think could have done as well in Belicheck’s system. It basically just goes to my contention that championships can’t be the primary metric. Obviously, if you believe they are, you’ll believe he’s the GOAT.

I don’t have any issues with people coming to different conclusions based on the same information - it’s just an entertaining debate. But I don’t like having my words nd thoughts mischaracterized, you (and one other guy here) are the GOATs.

If I think back on what I’ve said around here, I think the only guy I may have suggested might be better than Brady is Aaron Rodgers. It’s obviously not based on championships - it’s not quantifiable at all. It’s simply a matter of having watched everyone since the Starr / Unitas era with a semi-educated eye. I’ve just never seen anyone who plays all facets of the position as well as him. It’s like watching Jordan play basketball (and I’m not calling him the GOAT over LeBron or Wilt either) - he just seems to have been designed from the ground up to play the position. The way he reads defenses (where he’s not better than Brady but is probably as good), the way he moves with the ball, buys time, moves in the pocket, sees the field, runs when he has to, and good lord, the way he throws is just several different things of beauty. He throws into tighter windows with the whole gamut of hard to soft throws and when he’s healthy, he almost never makes a bad throw. There’s nobody I’ve been more impressed watching over the years and I’m not a Packers fan at all. Maybe Mahomes has some of that DNA - he’s showing some signs of it, but it’s way too early to say...

Other than Rodgers, I’m not suggesting anyone else even MIGHT be better than Brady, but a few others I think are AS GOOD. So there’s no confusion...

-Ray

[Kerbie]

Come on, guys... let it go.