Taming the LR Baggs M80 pickup

[Methos1979]

I recently picked up a Martin 000-18GE Custom that came with an LR Baggs Lyric that I didn't like at all. Normally I'm a K&K guy. I had an M80 pickup laying around that I picked up in a trade some time back so I decided to throw that in for now just to try it out. I did a lot of research via the Search function here for opinions and whatnot so I know there are a fair amount of users for this system and I'm aware of its benefits and challenges.

One of the challenges I'm having a really hard time with is taming the higher strings, especially the B and high E. I've got the pole pieces (short ones installed) dialled ALL the way down and they still dominate the tone no matter how lightly I play. God-forbid I accidently over-pluck one of those two with any force or it sounds/feels like your head is going to explode!! I should also note that I do have the internal mic on and a fresh battery installed.

Of course I've tried dialing it out with EQ which helps a bit but not a lot. Right now I've got some Martin SP extra light 80/20s on the guitar. These are not my normal gage/brand just some I had laying around. I normally use Elixir light 80/20s but I also read in one of those threads that PB's work better. I picked up some D'Addarrio PB 12's yesterday so maybe I'll throw those on to see if that helps.

Noledog is a strong proponent of this pickup system and in a few threads offered some steps for proper installation. If you see this, Noledog, please chime in with those steps again, please, perhaps with some slightly longer and more detailed information. And same for everyone for that matter if you have experience with pickup system and suggestions on how to best extract the best tone out of this guitar. As always any feedback is most welcome and appreciated.

I guess I should also mention that I'm using a Carvin AG200 amp. For additional processing I have access to a Red Eye pre-amp, a K&K and an LR Baggs Para DI. I prefer the Red Eye or straight into the amp for simplicity or the K&K if I need EQ at my fingertips (belt clip model). I rarely use the Para just because it has so many settings as to be daunting.

I still might just go with the K&K down the road but I've had problems as some open mic venues with feedback on the K&K equipped guitars. One of the reasons I'm trying to like the M80 is because of the natural feedback resistance of magnetic type pickups.

[varmonter]

Pretty sure you can screw the posts all the way out and remove them compleatly. Mine are screwed down and sound great. The secret is string
balance. So you may also need to turn the E,A,D strings up and then adjust your volume and eq so your balanced. Turn the g string down as well as it may be
picking up the b string some..

[Brent Hahn]

I have an M80 and like it a lot.

You don't say what kind of K&K you normally use, but you realize that with a magnetic pickup you can't use just any old strings, right?

I went through a few different kinds of strings earlier on trying to find some that would work with my Bill Lawrence magnetic, and finally landed on Martin Marquis (I also need them nickel-free). So when I got the Baggs I stuck with the Marquis and the've been fine.

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Pretty sure you can screw the posts all the way out and remove them compleatly. Mine are screwed down and sound great. The secret is string
balance. So you may also need to turn the E,A,D strings up and then adjust your volume and eq so your balanced. Turn the g string down as well as it may be
picking up the b string some..

Good idea about the G post. I did screw that one down as far as it goes but it's obviously a long post so it didn't go far. I did not know that you can completely remove the pole pieces and still have the pickup work though, so thanks for that tip. I think I'll try replacing the G pole with a short one to dial that one farther back and see how that goes.

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I have an M80 and like it a lot.

You don't say what kind of K&K you normally use, but you realize that with a magnetic pickup you can't use just any old strings, right?

I went through a few different kinds of strings earlier on trying to find some that would work with my Bill Lawrence magnetic, and finally landed on Martin Marquis (I also need them nickel-free). So when I got the Baggs I stuck with the Marquis and the've been fine.

I use the regular K&K Pure Mini. And yes, I am aware that there are considerations about strings with magnetic pickups. I mentioned that in the third paragraph of the original post. I plan to put on some PB 12's probably on Monday to see if that helps tame things a bit.

[noledog]

Hi Methos,

Here are some tips that I have found in my extensive experience with the M80 that have served me well to achieve a nice live performance sound:

* non-coated PB's like Martin M540 or John Pearse 600L work well with M80...choose one with thicker core rather then thin core strings. The M80 works well with and designed with PB's in mind. I use the M540 12-54.

** ADJUSTMENTS:

1.) first slide pickup starting at closest to fret board & slowly move back towards bridge until 5th fret harmonics come in, then snug the brackets only till the M80 doesn't move.
It's not necessary to over tighten...some folks add padding to mounts to tame the percussive/body resonance capability of this pickup, but I don't because of the reggae/percussive style I employ, so I enjoy and use it to my advantage.

2.) adjusting pole pieces makes a huge difference...I removed my B pole completely and keep the E at about half. I plucked the E and adjusted height till it came into a balanced volume with the B. Since the B is the hottest of the six strings, I worked from it's volume up in adjusting the rest of the strings. Now work your way to G > D > A > E/6th string. The A string frequency generally resonates a little hotter than the low E so you may find backing it down a bit lower then your low E.

Remember the poles are picking up the core and since the the E wrap is thicker then the A, you may want to bump it up to balance. Close your eyes and with allen wrench ready listen to volume then tweak. Thin core brand/type strings ie low tension strings are harder to balance in volume and warmth.

I adjusted my low E to where if I fret it at 12th it clears the pole by 1/16th. This way I get max volume without mag string pull or any buzzing or clicking when strumming hard.

*** AMP/EQ

1.) the M80 is very warm and articulate once dialed in and part of the key to achieving that is the ability to adjust mids on amp/or by outboard eg if available. Every kind of pickup needs eq of some kind and since mags tend to be mid heavy, a nice mid cut via a notch filter or eq device/amp will help you find your sweet spot for YOUR particular guitar, volume, attack and style.

2.) for a quick very usable and simple fix, the Boss AD-2 has a freq. adj/notch filter to dial in the sweet spot of the M80. It also has the ability to add a touch of compression and resonance too.

A Platinum Pro or the like will work well too, but the AD-2 is a quick inexpensive way to dial in a nice tone...I use the AD-2 although sometimes I plug direct into my Loudbox Performer, dial mids back, adjust the Anti-Feedback aka notch filter and boom, good to go. But the AD-2 fine tunes it even better as other similar devices can do.

3.) if amp has phase switch, try which position sounds better to you; beside busting feedback it does change the tone despite what some may say otherwise. Phase switch is a must have for me and is your friend on stage! It's nice tho that the M80 is very feedback resistant.

**** I have recorded/have done session work for other artists CD's with my M80 equipped D18 with very nice results.

***** One thing to keep in mind is the way you attack your guitar. Some folks hit the pickup when they strum producing a clicking noise and thus say they don't like the M80. However adjusting your technique is easy to do.
I did not have any issue like this because my natural way of attack did not interfere with the pickup placement. I tend to heavy strum forward of sound hole, (3:03 in vid), finger pick just behind center, and flat pick/strum combo just a tad further south as this live video somewhat demonstrates.

Methos, I hope this helps you get closer to your desired sound. Everyone plays different and seeks what satisfies their ears. I find the M80 is very versatile for wide array of music I play and dynamics of my varied attack methods ie plectrum, flesh & nail fingerstyle, percussive stuff, and nicely combined with usable features. I use mine in active mode with on board volume set at halfway then stage the gain further via my wireless and amp.

Best wishes on such a lovely new Martin; IMO I think the creamy, ivoroid M80 looks way cool on your Ambertone GE! ...I love it on my D18 and hope it compliments your future musical discoveries!

eric

VID 1: Lite strum/flatpick then heavier strumming into Loudbox Performer



VID 2: Flesh and bit o' nail finger style direct into Loudbox Artist...very natural imo and I think the M80 excels at finger style.

[Methos1979]

Eric,

Just perfect! I was so hoping you saw this post. Your suggestions with expanded explanations is just what I need. I will try many of them out tomorrow. I spent a fair amount of time today playing around and made some adjustments that helped out quite a bit. I have completely removed the B and high E pole pieces and that helped quite a bit although the B is still hot. So I think your suggestion of keying in on that string as finding the proper volume for it and then EQ'ing and balancing volume around it will be key. I high E pole was a medium length so I might go to a short one if I find I lose too much of the high E when I dial in the B.

I replaced the G long pole piece with a short one and dialed that back a little less than half way down. I noticed the low E seems buried in the mix so I'm thinking your comments about the A being hotter is likely dead on and is one of the things I'll work on tomorrow as I try to bring the low end up a bit in the mix. I also noticed that I'm not picking up the harmonics so I'll have to adjust the M80 position. For the most part I strum (thumb, no pick) and fingerpick towards the back of the soundhole so I shouldn't have a problem with making contact.

I'm finding with this guitar and pickup that a lighter touch is much better although that might not be quite as critical once I get the pup dialed in better. Right now I've got the pup volume all the way up and then the overall volume/gain staging dialed back on the amp. I'll try your suggestion of halfway on the pup and then dial in the gain staging on the amp itself. I played around with the amp's onboard EQ and the mids are dialed way back with the sweepable also dialed back around 200 hz. I don't know if I have a phase switch on the AG200, I'll look into that as well. I'll post again after I try some of the above. Thanks again for your suggestions!

[Tony Done]

I have an M1A, on which I have done the following to fix the problems you mention:

Remove the 2nd string pole completely and lower the 1st string pole (I use the supplied short slug) until it all balances nicely. Not only does removing the slug reduce the volume, it also softens the difference in tone between the plain 2nd and the wound 3rd.

Put a passive tone control across the output. This is a little DPDT on-off-on switch with two small caps, it is connected directly to the output jack, and gives two levels of treble bleed. The switch is mounted on a bracket attached to the pickup with double-sided adhesive tape

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Tony Done

Remove the 2nd string pole completely and lower the 1st string pole (I use the supplied short slug) until it all balances nicely.

On my M80 the B pole is out (came that way, I think), and the E is all the way in.

[noledog]

Glad to help Scott ...if you don't have a phase inversion on your amp, your Para DI does. In fact the PDI would really be a beneficial tool to fine tune your sound once you dial in the M80 using the notch and mid sweep in addition to the wonderful EQ of this device. Don't be daunted by its features....but first thing is dialing in a good balanced tone straight in, then tweak with PDI if you like.

I look forward to your to hearing your results!

eric

[Song]

Originally Posted by noledog

Hi Methos,

Here are some tips that I have found in my extensive experience with the M80 that have served me well to achieve a nice live performance sound:

* non-coated PB's like Martin M540 or John Pearse 600L work well with M80...choose one with thicker core rather then thin core strings. The M80 works well with and designed with PB's in mind. I use the M540 12-54.

** ADJUSTMENTS:

1.) first slide pickup starting at closest to fret board & slowly move back towards bridge until 5th fret harmonics come in, then snug the brackets only till the M80 doesn't move.
It's not necessary to over tighten...some folks add padding to mounts to tame the percussive/body resonance capability of this pickup, but I don't because of the reggae/percussive style I employ, so I enjoy and use it to my advantage.

2.) adjusting pole pieces makes a huge difference...I removed my B pole completely and keep the E at about half. I plucked the E and adjusted height till it came into a balanced volume with the B. Since the B is the hottest of the six strings, I worked from it's volume up in adjusting the rest of the strings. Now work your way to G > D > A > E/6th string. The A string frequency generally resonates a little hotter than the low E so you may find backing it down a bit lower then your low E.

Remember the poles are picking up the core and since the the E wrap is thicker then the A, you may want to bump it up to balance. Close your eyes and with allen wrench ready listen to volume then tweak. Thin core brand/type strings ie low tension strings are harder to balance in volume and warmth.

I adjusted my low E to where if I fret it at 12th it clears the pole by 1/16th. This way I get max volume without mag string pull or any buzzing or clicking when strumming hard.

*** AMP/EQ

1.) the M80 is very warm and articulate once dialed in and part of the key to achieving that is the ability to adjust mids on amp/or by outboard eg if available. Every kind of pickup needs eq of some kind and since mags tend to be mid heavy, a nice mid cut via a notch filter or eq device/amp will help you find your sweet spot for YOUR particular guitar, volume, attack and style.

2.) for a quick very usable and simple fix, the Boss AD-2 has a freq. adj/notch filter to dial in the sweet spot of the M80. It also has the ability to add a touch of compression and resonance too.

A Platinum Pro or the like will work well too, but the AD-2 is a quick inexpensive way to dial in a nice tone...I use the AD-2 although sometimes I plug direct into my Loudbox Performer, dial mids back, adjust the Anti-Feedback aka notch filter and boom, good to go. But the AD-2 fine tunes it even better as other similar devices can do.

3.) if amp has phase switch, try which position sounds better to you; beside busting feedback it does change the tone despite what some may say otherwise. Phase switch is a must have for me and is your friend on stage! It's nice tho that the M80 is very feedback resistant.

**** I have recorded/have done session work for other artists CD's with my M80 equipped D18 with very nice results.

***** One thing to keep in mind is the way you attack your guitar. Some folks hit the pickup when they strum producing a clicking noise and thus say they don't like the M80. However adjusting your technique is easy to do.
I did not have any issue like this because my natural way of attack did not interfere with the pickup placement. I tend to heavy strum forward of sound hole, (3:03 in vid), finger pick just behind center, and flat pick/strum combo just a tad further south as this live video somewhat demonstrates.

Methos, I hope this helps you get closer to your desired sound. Everyone plays different and seeks what satisfies their ears. I find the M80 is very versatile for wide array of music I play and dynamics of my varied attack methods ie plectrum, flesh & nail fingerstyle, percussive stuff, and nicely combined with usable features. I use mine in active mode with on board volume set at halfway then stage the gain further via my wireless and amp.

Best wishes on such a lovely new Martin; IMO I think the creamy, ivoroid M80 looks way cool on your Ambertone GE! ...I love it on my D18 and hope it compliments your future musical discoveries!

eric

VID 1: Lite strum/flatpick then heavier strumming into Loudbox Performer



VID 2: Flesh and bit o' nail finger style direct into Loudbox Artist...very natural imo and I think the M80 excels at finger style.

Thanks for the awesome post! An affirmation of my affinity for mag P/Us.
You are a treasure Eric. You play and sing with pure joy and passion. Thank you!

[Tony Done]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

On my M80 the B pole is out (came that way, I think), and the E is all the way in.

Hmm. It sounds as if the problem is worse than my M1A then. I'm very particular about string-to-string balance, and mine is OK now. When you say "all the way in", is it a short pole or a long one? My M1A came with a couple of spares of different lengths. Have you tried taking the 1st pole out completely? It would be worth a try. Even if it is too, it might give you some ideas as to where to go next.

[noledog]

Originally Posted by Song

Thanks for the awesome post! An affirmation of my affinity for mag P/Us.
You are a treasure Eric. You play and sing with pure joy and passion. Thank you!

Thank you so much Song for your generous, kind and encouraging words, you made my day!

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Tony Done

Hmm. It sounds as if the problem is worse than my M1A then.

I'm not the guy with the problem. My M80 is dialed in perfectly.

[Tony Done]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I'm not the guy with the problem. My M80 is dialed in perfectly.

Mistook you for the OP.