Recording guitar and voice with separation

[Brent Hahn]

When the playing and singing has gone down at the same time, I've only had punches work by punching both. And even with that, it has only worked with digital. Punching out on tape always leaves a little gap, not that it's a present-day problem for me or most people.

[lkingston]

All I'm looking for is enough separation to be able to control the balance between the vocal and the guitar. I also want to be able to get a nice recording in an untreated space that doesn't suffer from the poor acoustics of a bedroom studio and a lack of soundproofing. I don't want added preamp noise. I want it to be simple, repeatable, and consistent. I also want it to look decent on video.

I think the two dynamic hypercardiod approach with phantom powered FetHead or Cloudlifters works well.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lkingston

...I don't want added preamp noise...

You're going to need a mic pre, built-in or otherwise no matter what mics you use.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

You're going to need a mic pre, built-in or otherwise no matter what mics you use.

I agree: hence the FetHeads on both mics.

[lkingston]

OK, this is a little closer I think. I added a shock mount to the EV609 on the guitar. No compression or EQ this time. Just a touch of light reverb. Other than that, the sound is what came off the mics.

Still to do: Move the mics to where they still sound good but you can see my hands, and play without speeding up on the instrumental bits.

I do like how the dynamic mics reject the untreated room ambience and miscellaneous home noise. The inline preamps (which you can see between the mics and the cables) make the Zoom H6 preamp noise a non-issue.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=594422

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Separation is great when you think/know you'll probably want to edit/punch or otherwise repair one signal whilst leaving the other intact at any given spot. But since both usually go up the center in a single guitar & vocal performance, the alternative is to get a good sound from the combination of the 2 sources.

It’s not only for punching [in] or repair because you might actually have some folks that simply don’t want to record them separately, but you’re going to put them in a mix so you might want to pan the guitar. “Good enough” separation might also allow different EQ, compression, automation and reverb without introducing artifacts that detract from the other track, though that can depend on the rest of the mix. You do have to avoid some FX and forget pitch correction in most cases (at least I’ve not tried it).

If you have to punch you’re going to have to do both tracks. My (home recording) approach is to just do multiple takes and comp if you don’t get it the first time.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I really like the sound of the SM7B on my voice. I've been using a FetHead to boost the gain but I find it brightens up the mic ever so slightly, so I'm going to switch to a Cloudlifter.

I love an LDC in an acoustically treated and isolated room, but it picks up too much of the room and every single sound in the house.

The SM7B is just so good at rejecting everything other than the vocal in a home recording environment. It is also really good at rejecting the guitar that I am playing while I'm singing.

try this one with the SM7...

https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-z

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

If you have to punch you’re going to have to do both tracks. My (home recording) approach is to just do multiple takes and comp if you don’t get it the first time.

I did that in one spot on the video I posted, and it's pretty hard to tell where. Yes, I swapped out both the vocal and guitar in that spot.

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I did that in one spot on the video I posted, and it's pretty hard to tell where. Yes, I swapped out both the vocal and guitar in that spot.

The easy “cheat” (if you are trying to make it look like a single take) is to have 2 or more cameras and switch angles at the punch, assuming you have the cameras rolling for all the takes of course. Then everything matches.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

The easy “cheat” (if you are trying to make it look like a single take) is to have 2 or more cameras and switch angles at the punch, assuming you have the cameras rolling for all the takes of course. Then everything matches.

If the flub is relatively short (a couple seconds or less), and you at least moved your fingers correctly, you can re-take and replace the audio and it's not noticeable at all even with one camera shot. In my most recent 4 videos I did that once or twice in each video. If I didn't know where it happened, I don't think I'd ever guess.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

If the flub is relatively short (a couple seconds or less), and you at least moved your fingers correctly, you can re-take and replace the audio and it's not noticeable at all even with one camera shot. In my most recent 4 videos I did that once or twice in each video. If I didn't know where it happened, I don't think I'd ever guess.

Yes, that's what I find as well.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

It’s not only for punching [in] or repair because you might actually have some folks that simply don’t want to record them separately, but you’re going to put them in a mix so you might want to pan the guitar. “Good enough” separation might also allow different EQ, compression, automation and reverb without introducing artifacts that detract from the other track, though that can depend on the rest of the mix. You do have to avoid some FX and forget pitch correction in most cases (at least I’ve not tried it).

If you have to punch you’re going to have to do both tracks. My (home recording) approach is to just do multiple takes and comp if you don’t get it the first time.

Different strokes and all that. I don't like the idea of panning a single voice & single guitar away from one another, especially when part of a video. The visual and audio just don't make sense to me that way.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Different strokes and all that. I don't like the idea of panning a single voice & single guitar away from one another, especially when part of a video. The visual and audio just don't make sense to me that way.

Neither do I. It's one of the reasons I usually add an overdub or two so I can balance out the stereo image. If it's a single guitar and vocal then it's a good reason to use a stereo verb on the guitar and pan hard left / right with the vocal up the middle.

I still love putting on a good set of headphones and listening to something like Revolver, which reveals something different in the extreme panning every time I listen.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

try this one with the SM7...



https://www.cloudmicrophones.com/cloudlifter-cl-z

I actually just got the two channel version, but I'm waiting for some short length XLR cables to arrive from Monoprice.com before I use it.

The FetHeads that I've been using are cool in that you can plug the directly into the mic without an extra cable. I was quite happy with the FetHeads until my son (who is an excellent audio guy) pointed out that they change the sound subtly. The FetHead adds a little more brightness. I can barely hear it, but it drives my son crazy. I trust his ears more than my own, and that is why I'm switching to the Cloudlifter even though the FetHeads haven't bothered me.

There is no question that the Cloudlifter adds very clean gain, and that is what I am after. If you have a high end outboard preamp, or an expensive mixer with beautiful preamps, you don't need the Cloudlifter, but with a Zoom recorder or an inexpensive audio interface, it makes a big difference in lowering the noise floor.

From the perspective of using a dynamic mic with a Zoom H6, without the Cloudlifter (or FetHead or other competitor) you have to turn the Zoom input way up and that adds a lot of hiss. This gets added to whatever ambient noise you have in the room, so some people mix up the two types of noise. Once you add the Cloudlifter (powered by phantom power), you have way more gain, so your input level goes way down and so does the hiss. This is most noticable with the SM7B because it is such a low output mic, but all dynamic mics will benefit.

Once the output gain is boosted, a good dynamic mic will sound very sensitive and you'll hear a lot of detail in the sound source, but the difference is that the sounds falls off much more quickly as you move away from the mic. This isn't so great in an ultra-quiet studio with great acoustics, but it is wonderful if you are recording in a house or an apartment with poor acoustics and a lot of ambient noise (outside traffic, refrigerator, ductwork etc.). I live in a rented condo in a quiet neighborhood, and boosted dynamics give me better recordings than I would get with expensive condensers.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by lkingston

...I was quite happy with the FetHeads until my son (who is an excellent audio guy) pointed out that they change the sound subtly. The FetHead adds a little more brightness. I can barely hear it, but it drives my son crazy. I trust his ears more than my own, and that is why I'm switching to the Cloudlifter even though the FetHeads haven't bothered me....

The Cloudlifter will add a bit of color as well. Everything in the audio chain does. Everything's a tradeoff.