Recording guitar and voice with separation

[lkingston]

I mostly want to record myself singing and playing guitar at the same time. I want as good sound quality as possible, but I also want as much separation as possible.

Today I recorded using a Shure SM7B on voice and a Shure PG81 small diaphragm condenser on guitar. The SM7B isolated the vocal well, but there was almost as much vocal as guitar on the small diaphragm condenser.

What is a good mic choice for getting a good guitar sound with lots of isolation from the vocal?

[Chipotle]

The "classic" way to do this is with two mics in figure-8 mode. Fran Guidry has a great post on doing this so I won't go over it here. It does require either a good room or gobos behind the mics so the rear lobe doesn't pick up room reflections.

I also came across this video from Neumann on "How to Record a Singer-Songwriter", part 2 discusses a few methods for two mics. It describes the two fig-8 method, but also using dynamic mics and hypercardioids to good effect.

I've done it with reasonable separation using two large-diaphragm cardioid condensers, carefully pointed as best I could in opposite directions. Guitar mic up a bit higher than the fretboard and pointing down at it, and vocal mic a bit to the side and below my mouth and pointing up.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I mostly want to record myself singing and playing guitar at the same time. I want as good sound quality as possible, but I also want as much separation as possible.

Today I recorded using a Shure SM7B on voice and a Shure PG81 small diaphragm condenser on guitar. The SM7B isolated the vocal well, but there was almost as much vocal as guitar on the small diaphragm condenser.

What is a good mic choice for getting a good guitar sound with lots of isolation from the vocal?

Couple of thoughts , questions and suggestions on this.

First I advise anyone who sings and plays to consider,,,,,while I also prefer to sing and play at the same time and still do record that way ,,,,, IMO it is always advisable to also learn to overdub the vocal as well (which is the only way to get complete isolation of guitar from voice ).

Also if one is going to sing and play at the same time, IMO the ideal situation is to have a single vocal mic, and pair of guitar mics , so ( at least 3 channels of mic pre ) which usually means a 4 mic pre interface unit. Which allows you mix the guitar spread out right and left, with the vocal in the center and automatically gives you more separation and more distinction of detail between the vocal and guitar
That said :::

Question , the spill you are currently getting creating a specific sonic problem other than just the spill ? (some sound issue you specifically do not like )

Also Yes figure 8 mics will help give more separation, BUT....

There are some methods (other than new mics) that can you try first, which help mitigate spill

#1 Mic positioning : with the SM 81 being a condenser it is going to be more sensitive off axis than the SM7 dynamic , so right off the bat you may want to lower the input volume of that mic for the recording, even if you bring it back up in the mixing . Then also try angling the 81 down towards the guitar, close to the guitar, and perhaps at the bottom of the bridge as opposed to the neck of the guitar (which is closer to your mouth)


#2 Mixing with a multi band adjustable EQ on each of the (I assume) two mono tracks, with having the EQ plugin on each track with a different mid range (narrower Q ) subtractive EQ cut. Often called "carving out space"

[keith.rogers]

#1 of what @KevWind posted.

The SM7b, because of its low sensitivity requires that you get really close, and so that gives you the isolation since the vocal signal is much higher than the guitar, which is significantly farther away. So, to get the same isolation for the guitar, you have to essentially the same thing, engage a -10dB pad (if it had one, or in this case, dial the preamp gain back a lot), and put it as close to the guitar as the vocal mic is to your face.

But, given that positioning probably doesn't give you the guitar sound you want, you need to work with the mic angle. I've just spent a few months fooling around with 1 and 2 mic placement for vocal+guitar and using angle on the SDC on a guitar, assuming you don't have a matched pair and really need some isolation, is about what you're left with.

I've attached a pic from a recent test with a LDC and SDC where the angles help keep the vocal and guitar levels in the tracks where you can manage them well and the spill/bleed is low enough that it doesn't create other issues.

It also helps to keep in mind that when you are singing, you need to really be doing your best to be looking up and never aiming down, e.g., staring at the fingerboard.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

It also helps to keep in mind that when you are singing, you need to really be doing your best to be looking up and never aiming down, e.g., staring at the fingerboard.

Head position a good point !! I forgot to mention,,, In fact I prefer an overhead boom stand for the vocal mic with it slightly above my mouth to force angling the mouth slightly up and away from guitar

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I mostly want to record myself singing and playing guitar at the same time. I want as good sound quality as possible, but I also want as much separation as possible.

Today I recorded using a Shure SM7B on voice and a Shure PG81 small diaphragm condenser on guitar. The SM7B isolated the vocal well, but there was almost as much vocal as guitar on the small diaphragm condenser.

What is a good mic choice for getting a good guitar sound with lots of isolation from the vocal?

The age-old problem!

I've been doing some Youtube videos of my own material and use a compromise between sound quality and isolation of vocal / guitar by using a K&K Pure Mini to record the guitar portion and a Shure SM-35 headset mic into another track of the recorder. The guitar, of course, is totally isolated and the vocal mic is almost as isolated. I was actually shocked at how little of the guitar was picked up by the headset mic. An added advantage to this setup is once you set levels you don't have to be concerned with mic placement or having to sit in one particular place without moving.

After recording guitar and vocal (shooting cell phone video at the same time...) I add a second overdubbed guitar and also bass. It's combined, synced, and edited in Reaper to create the finished videos.

A mic provides better sound quality for the guitar, but the the K&K is a pretty good second choice option.

[Al Acuff]

Recording a singing guitar player appears simple until you dive down the rabbit hole.

If you use two mics there will always be sonic compromises. Figure 8 mics have tremendous proximity effect and capture lots of room sound. Unless you have an appropriate room it won't give you great results. Cardioid mics have weaker nulls so you'll hear more bleed. Especially in the guitar mic. In either case you'll hear nulls and nodes due to phase interaction.

You might consider using one microphone for both voice and guitar. It requires more of the performer but it's the only method that gives you a phase coherent recording. You'll have to balance your voice and guitar while performing and learning to do that is worthwhile. Robert Johnson, Mississippi John Hurt, Woody Guthrie, Mississippi John Hurt and many others recorded with a single microphone. We have better mics and preamps than they did. Sit 2-3 feet back from a good microphone and play from the heart.

One of the things that separates cheap mics from expensive ones is the off axis coloration. If you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on mics you'll find that the bleed sounds much better than it does with consumer grade microphones. With 2 really good mics you can make the bleed work for you. With cheaper mics it's pretty much a waste of time.

Your best bet is probably to record with dynamic stage/broadcast microphones. Close miking with your SM7, SM57, a Beyerdynamic M88 or M201 will give you better separation and less room sound compared with condenser mics. As a bonus, for the price of a crummy cheap condenser mic you can get a very good sounding dynamic mic. The Sennheiser 421 dynamic mic is currently on sale at a massive discount. If I were you I'd grab one at the sale price and use it for your guitar. I'm thinking about buying one myself at the current price

[Brent Hahn]

You might find this interesting. The guitar mic is a Sennheiser 416 shotgun, and it's angled pretty severely.

[keith.rogers]

Oh, yeah. Standing up helps, too - gives at least half a foot of added physical separation for most folks I'd guess. The problem then is you have to learn to stand still .

Not wild about the sound of that 416 on the guitar in that video (it's a $1k mic!) - a pickup would work for that kind of sound, as shown in the previous video.

P.S. But, maybe I'll try an NTG-2 I've got sitting around doing nothing and see if it makes a difference. I'm thinking maybe not a lot because the vocal bleed is really one-sided, from the mic's perspective. Something for another day if I don't forget... (The couple times I tried it live on acoustic guitar I decided it was not the right solution.)

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

Not wild about the sound of that 416 on the guitar in that video (it's a $1k mic!) - a pickup would work for that kind of sound, as shown in the previous video.

You're entitled.

[lkingston]

This was my favorite entry to this years Tiny Desk Concert competition. The central guitarist/vocalist was miked with two shotguns, and it sounds exquisite. I have no idea how much separation was on the individual tracks, but boy do I like the sound of the mix!

https://youtu.be/Sk6Waj0-c8o

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I .........
Today I recorded using a Shure SM7B on voice and a Shure PG81 small diaphragm condenser on guitar.

How did you like the quality of your voice through the SM7B. Have you had the opportunity to compare to a good LDC

[lkingston]

I really like the sound of the SM7B on my voice. I've been using a FetHead to boost the gain but I find it brightens up the mic ever so slightly, so I'm going to switch to a Cloudlifter.

I love an LDC in an acoustically treated and isolated room, but it picks up too much of the room and every single sound in the house.

The SM7B is just so good at rejecting everything other than the vocal in a home recording environment. It is also really good at rejecting the guitar that I am playing while I'm singing.

[lkingston]

I recorded this with my regular Shure SM7B on voice and an EV609 (a dynamic hyper-cardiod) on the guitar. The rejection on both tracks is pretty good, and I like the way both mics share the same space on camera. I may have dialed in a little too much compression, but I like the sound. I also like that it is the same mic that I use for miking an amp when I’m using an electric. The biggest negative is that there’s no shock mounting so you can’t tap your foot.

I used FetHead preamps on both mics to get around the noise in the Zoom H6 preamps.

This is certainly the best quality sound I have gotten yet on a YouTube guitar and vocals video.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=594399

[RRuskin]

Separation is great when you think/know you'll probably want to edit/punch or otherwise repair one signal whilst leaving the other intact at any given spot. But since both usually go up the center in a single guitar & vocal performance, the alternative is to get a good sound from the combination of the 2 sources.