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  #1  
Old 07-08-2020, 12:18 PM
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Default New Journey Nylon

Well, maybe. The new Journey with the foldable neck is interesting, but there appears to be a desire for a more standard neck attachment.

Speaking of Journey, Casual just sent me a PM (as in pre-meditated) outlining what he thinks would be a game-changer in the CF nylon string lineup. His meditated guitar would be a nice place to start a forum-based guitar.

Journey is not known for its custom work, but other makers have responded to forum discussions with limited edition instruments. For example, Blackbird made 5 Super OM nylon string instruments on the basis of a forum conversation. Perhaps Journey would be amenable to such a joint venture.

In any event, it would be interesting if Casual would repeat his suggestions here which could then be discussed, augmented, and refined to the development of a new and improved CF nylon string guitar. Just a thought.
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2020, 12:25 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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I sent Evan a PM because I didn't want to disrespect Chloe@Emerald who started the thread about Evan's new thin body Emerald X10 nylon guitar.


Topics:

À. Evan is considering a Journey OC660 (11.5 litre body)
B. Suggestion for a larger nylon string guitar (15 litre) "EvanB Special Venture" from Journey Instruments
C. Ways and means
D. Evan's proposal for a group buy of the "Special Venture" guitar


Note:

The saying "there's no replacement for displacement" for the amount of torque from engines seems to also describe the loudness of guitars.

Guitar body size can be calculated by tracing onto grid paper, counting squares to find square inches, multiplying by thickness, and adusting for tapers, cutouts and bevels. Precision isn't needed - horseshoe closeness is plenty good enough.

Common guitar sizes range from 10-20ish litres, which makes litres easier to compare than hundreds of cubic inches or fractional gallons or the numbers for three dimensions.

1 litre is approx 61 cubic inches or 1.1 US quart.


À. OC660

Evan wrote that he was about to order a Journey OC660 nylon string carbon fibre travel guitar.

Owners reminded him that the OC660 (approx 11.5 litres, 18" x 12.5" x 5/3.55") is a small and quiet guitar that won't match the projection of the Ramirez classical guitar (approx 14 litres, 19" x 15" x 4"), and wouldn't be loud enough to play in a jam session without an amp.


B. The EvanB Special Venture large nylon string carbon fibre guitar:

I sent a PM suggesting that Evan ask Rob Bailey and company at Journey Instruments to make him a larger experimental nylon string guitar using existing facilities: the body mold for the Roadtrip RT660 (approx 15 litres, 19" x 14.5" x 3.5/4.8"); the OC660 classical guitar neck; and an enlarged OC660 soundboard.


I suggested that Evan explain his quest for a carbon fibre nylon string guitar that is large enough to jam with other instruments outdoors and comfortable to play.

He should explain in detail how he bought and played every available nylon string carbon fibre guitar, and the thinking behind the three special guitars built for him by Emerald Guitars.

He should explain that the Manzer Wedge used by Journey would fill his needs for big sound and playing comfort. He should point out that other guitar buyers are looking for the same thing.

Evan should ask for a nylon guitar built using the RT660 body mold, an OC660 neck and an enlarged OC660 soundboard.


C. Ways and means:

** Topic C is for us to understand the work needed. It would be awkward and uncomfortable to tell the experts at Journey Instruments how to do their work.


The OC660 neck uses a very convenient "snap-on and tighten" mechanism. It is designed for frequent removal.

The RT660 body uses the bolt-on method similar to electric guitars. The RT660 neck is designed for occasional removal.

Two options to address the differences are:
a. The guitar body made with the RT660 mold is modified to include the OC660 "snap-on and tighten" neck mechanism, or
b. The OC660 neck is filled and drilled for the threaded inserts used by the bolt-on system.


Journey would use their expertise to build a carbon fibre nylon string guitar with good projection:
- make the nylon string guitar body
- make the enlarged nylon string guitar soundboard.

Journey will need to fiddle with and re-work many details.

They will possibly (probably) make more than one soundboard, tacked in place with removable glue while experimenting, to arrive at a nice guitar they would be willing to release to a customer(s).


Rob Bailey and company would need to agree that this is a worthwhile use of R&D and workshop crafts people.


Note 1: Making an enlarged nylon guitar sound board will likely need some experimental wastage.

Journey Instruments will decide whether to charge the cost of wastage to the experimental guitar(s), or spread some of it to the price of future guitars.

Note 2: Mold making is a costly part of making carbon fibre guitars. Reusing the existing RT660 body mold and the OC660 neck mold lowers the cost.

Note 3: Rob Bailey, who lives in Hong Kong, is able to work directly with the workshop located across the straits in Guangdong (?) province.

Journey has, in the last two years, been expanding their range of products. New products include more wood guitars such as the FC 512 Classical Guitar (approx 15.3 litres, 19" x 14.5" x 3.5/4.62"), the FF412/422 GA (approx 16.5 litres, 18" x 16" x 3.55/5.0"), and variations on the small overhead flight guitars.

Note 4: I'm hoping that Journey will eventually introduce big carbon fibre guitars for full bore outdoor jamming and singalongs (17 litres or larger to address the dreadnought/GA market).


** End of initial idea.



D. Proposal for a group buy.

Evan reminds us of previous group buys and proposes that interested AGF members organize a group buy of a larger carbon fibre nylon string guitar from Journey Instruments.


.

Last edited by casualmusic; 07-09-2020 at 07:11 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-09-2020, 08:53 AM
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Casual;

Nicely done!

I have the upmost respect for Emerald, Rainsong, CA, and Blackbird; Indeed, I've meandered my way through just about every make of CF guitar and approach Journey as just another possible visit on the road.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:30 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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That seems to be a big ask. The niche of carbon fiber guitars in the world of acoustic guitars is small. The niche within a niche of those who want nylon string carbon fiber guitars is even smaller yet. If any manufacturer could capture all of that nylon string carbon fiber guitar market, would it be enough to sustain and survive?

I get that we all have some specific desires, but not every desire can be met due to physics or finances. Sometimes we have to live/work with what is available.

I find it admirable that Emerald took on the challenge of building the guitar that Evan desired - 3 times. This is one of those "physics" situations, where desire can't overcome those "laws." Asking Journey to build a bigger body guitar is a step in the right direction as far as getting more volume, but then there is that return on investment for Journey. As a retired business owner, I had to know when to say "No" to a losing proposition. Even some things that looked like an interesting challenge, but in the end would tie up time with no useful return.

There are ways to get Evan's desired result for volume: amplify an existing guitar. Buy the Ramirez that continues to be referenced. Both of these are "off the shelf" results that are known. No, neither of these are the dream of a thin CF nylon with a BIG sound. Sometimes desires have to be modified to get to a workable solution. No "big ask" for a builder to make a guitar that will defy the laws of physics.

Can Journey make a "semi-custom" that will give Evan the volume he wants? Probably, as long as he is willing to give up that desire for "thin." Will it be as comfortable as any of the 3 custom thin Emeralds? Doubtful. Can Journey do so profitably? I don't have any insight into their cost/production, but that isn't an insignificant issue. That is a risk/benefit that they would have to determine.

The Ramirez is wood. It means Evan would have to give up the ease and convenience of carbon fiber. It isn't thin. It doesn't have all those curves and bevels. But, it does have the volume.

I think it would be great if Porsche would build a car that has the look of the Cayman, the power of a 911 Twin Turbo, and get 60 miles per gallon. If they could sell it for $20k, they would sell millions of them. Alas, the physics/technology for that doesn't exist, nor could it ever be profitable. (We lose money on every one we build, but we make it up in the volume! Rimshot!)

Is it OK to publicly ask a builder to make something you desire? Sure. Is it OK for them to point at you and laugh? Well, that's not polite, but they could nicely tell you "No"... or maybe "We'll look into it."

Solutions and decisions. This post may not be popular here, but I hope it provides some food for thought. In the words of the philosopher Mick Jagger, "You can't always get what you want..."
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2020, 10:01 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
....The niche of carbon fiber guitars in the world of acoustic guitars is small. The niche within a niche of those who want nylon string carbon fiber guitars is even smaller yet...
I'll quote Bob Taylor's response when asked about starting up a mandolin or octave mandolin line: "Once all twelve players in the world that want one have one made by Taylor, how do we keep selling the others"? We've been waiting a dozen years for Taylor to build production ukulele and it hasn't happened yet, despite the wild popularity of ukulele for the last 20 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
There are ways to get Evan's desired result for volume: amplify an existing guitar. Buy the Ramirez that continues to be referenced. Both of these are "off the shelf" results that are known.
I get these conflicting requests from clients all the time, and my usual response to illustrate the underlying issue is: You can get 500 HP or 100 mpg, but you cannot do both in the same vehicle. Write all the fancy specifications that you want, but both cannot be done. Sorry Evan.

Last edited by Earl49; 07-09-2020 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:30 AM
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To hijack just a bit, Evan, if you had kept all the different CF guitars you've had over the years, how many total would that be? (numbers, not dollar amount . . .)

I do remember the special group orders with Blackbird and others, the Cargos, and more.

It occurred to me a moment ago that had you kept them all, you just might have a collection that would rival Mr. Kramster's.

Or is my memory simply off?
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:42 AM
jdinco jdinco is offline
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I'm not sure of the price of the Ramirez, but I suspect you could buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of a custom CF. With minimum care, I think wood guitars are a bit tougher than we give them credit for. If that's the sound you like.....
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:50 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Or a Ramirez and a really nice furniture grade humidity cabinet to display in the living room, handy for play. And lots of Humidi-Paks, plus a spare Ramirez guitar.
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:26 PM
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AC: I can't think of anyone who rivals Kramster's collection, I don't come close. Two CAs, 3 Blackbirds, and 5 Emeralds would make for a nice collection, but it would be a little pricey for me. Besides, I'm not as interested in collecting as I am in new frontiers.

I understand the economic imitations of a CF nylon string guitar, but I also appreciate the innovation that the various makers have pursued. Rainsong has produced a number of guitars that did not market well--but the company has continued to explore. Blackbird stepped out of its general market to produce a guitar envisioned by 5 players. And Emerald has walked through 5 custom nylon string guitars with me, with no guarantee of commercial viability (because, I believe, Alistair is very much interested in new frontiers and while money is important so is the search.

I have no idea whether Journey is interested in player input, but its new nylon string guitar indicates that the company is not afraid to take on a challenge. I think it's neat to have a forum where novel ideas can be advanced, supported and argued by payers.

And about that Ramirez. I could have purchased the guitar any time in the last 10 years, but I've been spoiled by the ergonomics and innovations found with carbon fiber. My only quibble with the CF guitars is their weak projection with nylon strings. The tonal qualities of my two 10s and one 7 are highly satisfactory and they electrify well. I think they can do better acoustically and that's where I've been putting my money.
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Old 07-09-2020, 02:37 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdinaz View Post
I'm not sure of the price of the Ramirez, but I suspect you could buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of a custom CF. With minimum care, I think wood guitars are a bit tougher than we give them credit for. If that's the sound you like.....
I think if we come out of our CF closet for even just a moment we can agree that wooden guitars are a bit tougher than we give credit for, especially anything laminate. With regard to tone, in my not so humble opinion, the laminate guitars may not be quite up to snuff to some of the best of CF guitars, but the solid wood guitars- now that is a different thing all together. I don't think I have to play every CF out there to feel confident that a quality Taylor, Martin, Gibson or any number of upper end boutique builders is going to edge CF in tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
... Alistair is very much interested in new frontiers and while money is important so is the search.
Yep, Emerald is the most progressive and are very engaged with music creators, and I don't see any other CF maker doing the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I have no idea whether Journey is interested in player input, but its new nylon string guitar indicates that the company is not afraid to take on a challenge. I think it's neat to have a forum where novel ideas can be advanced, supported and argued by payers.

I think they can do better acoustically and that's where I've been putting my money.
Evan, I don't know if you were involved in the MacNichol Forum but Rob at Journey was very involved and engaged with the members there. He was also initially involved here so maybe there is some hope in at least running ideas by them.

I did find this video this morning, looks interesting- Dlutowski Guitars. This "Classic G" model sounds promising in volume but looks substantially thicker than your X10. Had you known about them? I vaguely did but was reminded of how good looking their guitars are and how good they sound.

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Old 07-09-2020, 03:16 PM
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Steel;

I agree with the wood/tough notion. It's amazing how many really old wooden instruments have survived in one piece, through hard times.

Yes, I remember Rob's contributions to the old and the new forums. I particularly liked the way he edged into carbon fiber, taking his time, taking care of the little as well as the big details. I suspect that now might not be the best time to make the suggestions made in this thread since Journey is, at the moment, just bringing out a new CF product. But my impression is that Rob is in for the long haul, takes a long view, and keeps an eye on this forum. Hi Rob.

Thank you Steel for the Dlutowski recommendation. I had not heard of the maker. I just went on line and listened to some more play. The instruments are nothing short of ravishing. I'll bet the price is equally ravishing.
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Old 07-09-2020, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
. . . Evan, I don't know if you were involved in the MacNichol Forum but Rob at Journey was very involved and engaged with the members there. He was also initially involved here so maybe there is some hope in at least running ideas by them. . . .
If I recall correctly, Evan had the highest total of posts on the MacNichol forum when it closed, followed by his nephew, Kramster. Again, if I recall correctly . . .
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Old 07-09-2020, 03:40 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac View Post
If I recall correctly, Evan had the highest total of posts on the MacNichol forum when it closed, followed by his nephew, Kramster. Again, if I recall correctly . . .
Oh! This Evan is THAT Evan??

I don't know how I can live with me self. I recall and appreciate all your great input there Evan (and here), pardon my ignorance. I've been here longer, but my interest in all things CF piqued a couple years before MacNichol G&M closed down. I just remember all the complaints about how long it was taking Journey to release the OF660. They waited and I'm so happy- that guitar checks off so many boxes for me.
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Old 07-09-2020, 03:45 PM
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BTW, a great reminder about the Dlutowski Guitar site ( https://www.artluthier.com ).

If there was ever a carbon fiber guitar that might rival the Ramirez, my guess is these are the guys who will make it. They build dead center in Spain--Madrid.

IMO, their clientele there would not be satisfied with something that didn't sound like a quality nylon string "real" Spanish guitar.

Also, the price quote I saw was not insane at all. The Euro and Dollar are not that far apart now.

Something to consider . . . just saying.

Google Translate or Yandex Translate, could be helpful navigating the website. Or use Chrome, Chromium, etc., and it can easily translate the website on the fly. Or, learn Spanish??
================= UPDATE================
My bad. They do have the website available in English. Just didn't see it at first. http://www.artluthier.com/en/home-2/

Last edited by ac; 07-09-2020 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:33 PM
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Yes, my nephew tried to catch up, but he was just a young sprout then, he's older than that now.

Thank you AC for getting me to the site--the price of the Dlutowski seems very reasonable for what I'm hearing. It does look a little big for me and it does seem built on traditional lines without the ergonomics I like. But it has my attention.
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