A guitar especially for lowered tunings?

[joeld]

Hi All,
I'm thinking about having a guitar built specificly for lowered tunings. The 6th string will be tuned to either D or C. E is right out! I'm aiming for a deep growly voiced but punchy instrument with lots of shimmer and 'reverb' in the treble. I don't need note separation and clarity, but I don't want the bass to overwhelm the high notes. I'll be fingerstyling without much style but with vigor, and a bit of clawhammer probably. No strumming in the plan at the moment.

I've been talking a bit with a builder and this is the suggestion:

0000
fan-fret with 26" to 25.5"
13-fret with cutaway
'tone port'
spruce top, slightly softer wood like Englemann or Lutz
Cocobolo B&S, or maybe Wenge
Non-radiused top
Active back & stiff sides
1.75" nut, slightly fat C-shaped neck
Ebony board & Evo frets

What do you think? Too extreme? What would you order if you wanted something like this? Would I be better off with an accordion? Cheers, /jd

[Brucebubs]

Have you considered just fitting a baritone guitar with a lighter set of strings?

I have a set of 12-54 Lights on my Alvarez ABT-60 and it comes mighty close to your description.

On a higher quality baritone guitar it might sound even better ... and even closer to what you're looking for.

[joeld]

I hadn't thought of that! I don't know that I've ever held a baritone guitar in my hands. I wish the showrooms were open so I could find one to try. Thanks for the idea. /jd

[Quickstep192]

Or, perhaps a fan fret where the bass strings are longer providing additional "growl" or perhaps a fan fret baritone.

Here's one to listen to.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com/modelbaritone_video.html

[Wade Hampton]

Yeah, the way I dealt with the same issue, JD, was to commission an acoustic baritone guitar from Roy McAlister. I tune it B to B with the same intervals between the strings as standard tuning, and by placing the capo anywhere between the fourth fret and the nut I can get lower voicings in whatever keys I want.

For a while Roy also made what he was calling "semi-baritones" that were intended to be tuned D to D or C to C, but for me it was just more practical to have the full baritone range. The scale length on my McAlister baritone is 28.3", which takes some getting used to, but doesn't take as long as you might guess.

Anyway, a fan fret arrangement from 26.5" scale for a low C or D and a 25" scale for the high C or D might work beautifully. And, of course, plenty of players tune regular scale length guitars down to D with no problem, though going as far as C can be more problematic.

By the way, when I first got the baritone the idea of having a B to B tuning seemed very odd to me, and I halfway expected to ultimately tune it C to C. But it turns out that B to B is more practical on a baritone, because you realize that the chords you're playing in the B to B tuning work better when other instruments are being played at the same time.

For example, in the B to B tuning a G formation gives you a D natural chord, a C formation gives you a G natural, a D chord form gives you an A natural, an A minor formation gives you an E minor natural, and so forth.

In a C to C tuning those G, C, D, and Am formations give you an Eb, Ab, Bb and Fm natural chords respectively.

I've always found playing in a D to D tuning much easier to navigate than a C to C tuning, too, because you're simply one step down from standard tuning. So if you play much with other people that D to D tuning might ultimately prove to be the most practical tuning for you.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Doug Young]

I tune the 6th string down to D or C on any guitar I own, as do many people. That doesn't need a special guitar, tho you might want slightly heavier strings on the ones you plan to tune down. Once you get down to B or even A, you might be better off with a longer scale - either a baritone, or a fan fretted/multi-scale guitar for better intonation, but its not uncommon to just tune a regular guitar down to at least B or Bb.

[Ray175]

Some Luthiers will make guitars specifically for alternate tunings. Nigel Forster is a case in point. When I visited him in Newcastle UK some years ago I seem to remember him telling me about making one for Martin Simpson. Sadly, for me, Nigel has relocated to Queensland Australia but the people in Oz have gained an amazing Luthier.
PS Nigel’s books on guitar construction are well worth the read!

[The Bard Rocks]

Like Wade, I keep my baritone normally B to B and do not usually use capos - unless I am playing with others and want to use a certain fingering on someone else's selection.

I find I am happiest with it when recording or playing instrumentals, certain instrumentals, usually slower ones (it handles fast pieces just fine, just is not special on them). But on those certain ones, boy does it sing!

You could probably use a shorter scaled one, not the 28' variety if you never intend to play B-B. They feel more like any regular guitar as you arm is extended less. When I pick up the baritone, which is not all that often, find myself adapting immediately.

I'll let someone who owns a fan fret address that as another possibility for you.

Your luthier should be able to create just what you want. Just think carefully about it as you apparently have done. I had once created for a certain sound, got it, then learned (over time) that I didn't really seek that sound very often.

[gfspencer]

Consider a baritone 12-string. You get lots of bass but you get chime from the octave strings.

[YamahaGuy]

My mahogany Ibanez looked like the bridge was lifting (turns out is a bad glue job), but to be safe I have strung it with 13s and tune it D to D. It sounds really good, especially dark sound with the all mahogany construction. So maybe go for a dark top...

[Dhouse335]

I just acquired such a guitar. I wasn't looking for it, but it found me.

It is a Froggy Bottom G12... the warranty card calls it "drop tune" and I have been playing it in C standard. It is a mountain of a guitar... 12 fret 17" bout Jumbo body. It sounds very large and a whole bunch of low end.

That said, it has enough top end, overtones, harmonic content, etc... Really a special guitar.

It's a 25.5 scale, adi/walnut, with 16/70 strings. I am going to try it with mediums... as I am getting to know what it can do...

The description you laid out seemed really close to the idea FB had when they made this one... and it is very inspiring.

[Dhouse335]

Originally Posted by gfspencer

Consider a baritone 12-string. You get lots of bass but you get chime from the octave strings.

Any good builders you can suggest? I see a used Froggy... but I am still recovering from other purchases...

Thanks

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by joeld

Hi All,
I'm thinking about having a guitar built specificly for lowered tunings. The 6th string will be tuned to either D or C. E is right out! I'm aiming for a deep growly voiced but punchy instrument with lots of shimmer and 'reverb' in the treble. I don't need note separation and clarity, but I don't want the bass to overwhelm the high notes. I'll be fingerstyling without much style but with vigor, and a bit of clawhammer probably. No strumming in the plan at the moment.

I've been talking a bit with a builder and this is the suggestion:

0000
fan-fret with 26" to 25.5"
13-fret with cutaway
'tone port'
spruce top, slightly softer wood like Englemann or Lutz
Cocobolo B&S, or maybe Wenge
Non-radiused top
Active back & stiff sides
1.75" nut, slightly fat C-shaped neck
Ebony board & Evo frets

What do you think? Too extreme? What would you order if you wanted something like this? Would I be better off with an accordion? Cheers, /jd

Hi joeld…

I don't think it's too extreme, in fact perhaps not extreme enough for me (and I'm a really conservative guy). On the scale, I'm assuming you mean a 25.5" treble side and 26" bass side to the fan?

I retrospect I'm glad I had a conventional guitar rather than a baritone guitar built. I don't like the tone of Baritone guitars I've played compared to their less boomy fanned fret 'normal' acoustic counterparts. I wasn't looking for over-the-top bottom end, which every baritone acoustic guitar I've played sounds-like/feels-like to me. A .070 low bass string tuned to low B/A is a different animal than a .056 bass string tuned down to B/A. It's fatter physically, and easier to overpress (bending it sharp). And the scale changes as well. It's physically larger, and longer than normal acoustics.

I own a 2005 Bashkin OM fanned fret (fan is 25"-25.75") - Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce - radiused top and back - stiffened/doubled sides - 5 piece neck. I like the idea of Evo frets…though mine has not needed any fret work in 15 years, other than they were leveled about half way through during a setup.

Just curious as to why a non-radiused top? My Olson is a true flat-top, and the tension of the strings still pulls a bubble/arch behind the bridge.

I have a sound port on one of my guitars, but not the Bashkin. And I could have had it added if needed. It is such a responsive guitar and projects so well, a side-port would be a waste.

For me side ports are only necessary when the forward projection of a guitar is solid, but the player doesn't hear the guitar well. This is what was taking place with my Kronbauer mini-jumbo. It kicks like a mule out front, but the player cannot hear it as well as the audience. The side-port I had added accomplished what was needed.

What do you mean by active back? If the back is solid (like the top) and the sides rigid, how could the back not be active.

Why only ½" fan? I've played quite a few ½" fans…
…a luthier I know builds most of his normal guitars with a ½" fan and it's barely perceptible from his 'normal' builds. My ¾" offset affects the bass more (positively). And of all the fans I've played, the ¾" fan (and in one case full 1" fan) brings the best of both bass/treble worlds.

Most of the fanned frets I've played have the offset split evenly between the bridge and the nut, which means the perpendicular fret wire falls about half-way up the fingerboard. This is great because it allows the fretting hand to angle with the fan at both ends of the fingerboard.

Articulate bass and clean and full-sounding trebles…
In the case of my Baskin, because the scale is slightly short scale to slightly beyond full scale, the bass strings are a bit stronger, and the trebles bend easier on my OM and are clear but not biting in the high range. If anything the trebles on mine are a bit mellow (but clear). I attribute part of the 'mellow' aspect to the Italian Spruce, and the rest to the skill of the luthier.

I've played great fanned frets with even clearer trebles, and if I only had one guitar, then that would be the way I want it.

And I play all-flesh without a thumb pick. Mine complements other guitars well when I'm playing in duos or ensembles. It's great for backing less aggressive singers.

As for 13 fret versus 12 or 14, I've played several unnoticably different 13 fret guitars from builders who build 14 frets normally. If there was any difference in the tone profile over their normal builds, I couldn't perceive it…it just didn't relocate the bridge enough to make a difference.

If there was one thing I could add to my Bashkin it would be extending the treble side so it could play a high D (22 frets instead of 20). I play in both dropped and standard tunings (yet Dropped D) so being able to fret the high D would be nice. I can hit the harmonic, but that changes the character of the note.

Looking forward to your responses.

My Bashkin OM laid out so I can explain fanned frets to others…

[Bob from Brooklyn]

So... somewhat related..

What gauge strings are we using for these lowered tunings?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

So... somewhat related..

What gauge strings are we using for these lowered tunings?

Hi BB

If you asking the group, on mine I run light/med (1-2-3 light/4-5-6 medium).

Sometimes I bump string #1 up a weight to equalize the tone between strings one and two, especially when I'm playing a lot of backing and melody parts. My middle finger tends to produce a fatter tone on string 2 than my ring finger does on string 1, and bumping the top string a weight equalizes that. That's getting really nit-picky isn't it?

On my Bashkin the light/med sets allow me to easily drop my bass down to Bb or B.