NEED HELP DECIDING

[mustachio]

I’m not sure if this belongs here but I have a Matrix Infinity VT Blend (new version) and I can’t decide which guitar to put it in.

Here are my choices: both are 2018 reimagined standard series Martins 000-18 and an HD-28.

My trepidation is in changing the weight of the guitar and altering the tone transfer when putting the UST on any guitar. But, one has to be my gigging guitar. Both guitars have that swirly 3D sound and I’ve experienced in past pickups I’ve installed that the 3D quality goes away.

I used to have an HD-28V that I regretted putting an Infinity in because the long saddle had to be modified and the guitar suffered acoustically bacuase the pickups was shorter than the saddle. Therefore the acoustic signal was weak plugged in and unplugged sounded 90% of its potential. However, I did put an Infinity in a Waterloo once and couldn’t believe how loud and awesome it was. Plus, Teja’s new review of the VT Blend is in an OM and it sounds pretty good.

So, maybe the question isn’t just purely which guitar gets a pickup, but also, what size guitar do you prefer to perform with: dread or 000/OM style?

Thanks, everyone!

[Cuki79]

Why not buying a 2018 HD-28E or an 2018 OM-18E? and sell the other.

You get:
1) Easy battery change
2) Aura VT enhance
3) You know exactly what you buy acoustic and plugged-in tone wise.

Check MartinGitDave post with his table about pickup impact on acoustic tone... It's a very bad rabbit hole to jump into.

I can't vote: I have nearly the same problem as you (got a HD-28 and long for a 000/OM)... but have no solution.

[Silly Moustache]

It depends on which one you -perform solo with.

Personally, whilst I love my 000, I need the power of my dreads with medium strings for performance, so two of them have bugs. (K&K) although I usually prefer a good large condenser mic.

I tried bugging up my 000 some years ago and got way too much feedback to bother.

[noledog]

* I personally would do the 000-18 and I do, (the Retro with F1 AURA PLUS) because it's easier to run around stage and audience which I do, and its more feedback resistant with the smaller cavity.

** I personally would try to find a 000-18e with the F1 AURA PLUS, unfortunately the new ones have the Matrix VT Enhance which I found after much trial not a very good sounding system, especially compared to the ultra versatile and very natural tone of the F1AP...this coming from a full time working musician who used the Takamine Cooltube system for years and loved it. The F1AP is the only system I found to be equal or better for what I do as an acoustic soloist playing reggae, trop-rock etc at high volumes, most of the time outside. (I do like the Baggs M80 very much for certain applications, but that's another story.)

Best wishes,

eric

[mustachio]

Originally Posted by noledog

* I personally would do the 000-18 and I do, (the Retro with F1 AURA PLUS) because it's easier to run around stage and audience which I do, and its more feedback resistant with the smaller cavity.

** I personally would try to find a 000-18e with the F1 AURA PLUS, unfortunately the new ones have the Matrix VT Enhance which I found after much trial not a very good sounding system, especially compared to the ultra versatile and very natural tone of the F1AP...this coming from a full time working musician who used the Takamine Cooltube system for years and loved it. The F1AP is the only system I found to be equal or better for what I do as an acoustic soloist playing reggae, trop-rock etc at high volumes, most of the time outside. (I do like the Baggs M80 very much for certain applications, but that's another story.)

Best wishes,

eric

Hmmm. I sell and get another guitar. Too much of a crap shoot to get a guitar that feels as good as these. But I was leaning toward 000-18. So, you play solo and never feel limited by the smaller size and scale?

[noledog]

Originally Posted by mustachio

Hmmm. I sell and get another guitar. Too much of a crap shoot to get a guitar that feels as good as these. But I was leaning toward 000-18. So, you play solo and never feel limited by the smaller size and scale?

* Yes I play solo and over my career have used dreads, (still use a D-18 for certain venues), I've used 0000, OM's (still use one as well) and more...I find the thinner, smaller 000 very versatile for mobility, feedback resistance, and doing 4 hour shows; sometimes two of them a day!

** The short scale helps not only with bending my .25 G string, but with fatigue over the hours of performing. Since I'm plugged in, the smaller body is not an issue as far as volume goes and in fact, as I said, the smaller cavity helps reduce feedback issues.

*** The only negative is that I've had several cutaway models in the past which helps with access to the upper frets and i go there a lot, but I've learned to work around it on this 000-18 and the Martin PA taper helps as you slide up that way.

**** Here's a lil' recent live sample, please excuse the lack of light as I was simply using an ol' Canon camera in a dark bistro, but with earbudz the sound is good. Jus' me and the 000-18 thru my beat up Loudbox Performer.



Best wishes as you research and decide,

eric

[mustachio]

Originally Posted by noledog

* Yes I play solo and over my career have used dreads, (still use a D-18 for certain venues), I've used 0000, OM's (still use one as well) and more...I find the thinner, smaller 000 very versatile for mobility, feedback resistance, and doing 4 hour shows; sometimes two of them a day!

** The short scale helps not only with bending my .25 G string, but with fatigue over the hours of performing. Since I'm plugged in, the smaller body is not an issue as far as volume goes and in fact, as I said, the smaller cavity helps reduce feedback issues.

*** The only negative is that I've had several cutaway models in the past which helps with access to the upper frets and i go there a lot, but I've learned to work around it on this 000-18 and the Martin PA taper helps as you slide up that way.

**** Here's a lil' recent live sample, please excuse the lack of light as I was simply using an ol' Canon camera in a dark bistro, but with earbudz the sound is good. Jus' me and the 000-18 thru my beat up Loudbox Performer.



Best wishes as you research and decide,

eric

Thanks! I think you’ve sold me. Great sound and vid.

[noledog]

Originally Posted by mustachio

Thanks! I think you’ve sold me. Great sound and vid.

Cheers & thanks, and I look forward to yer NGD!

[martingitdave]

I have some relevant experience to share.

1. I also put a Matrix infinity in a long saddle custom HD28v and regretted it for the same reason. The saddle is too long and the pickup too short. I tried different mods and shims to remedy it. But, the result was the same. The guitar was quieter and had less bass. Ultimately, that guitar got a new saddle and a K&K. If this were not an issue, I would have bought the same blend system for this guitar. It appears to be great.

2. The Matrix, under a standard drop in saddle, does not really alter the sound to my ears. Maybe a few “percent” at most. I have tested this obsessively. I would argue that most people would not be able to tell the difference while playing them. Some people hear a difference after installing a UST. I’m beginning to think that the quality of the under saddle pickup installation has a lot to do with the acoustic results.

3. I have the HD-28E Retro with the new enhance system, which has about the same amount of “stuff” as the new blend system. It’s a very loud and highly resonant guitar. It’s conceivable that it could sound better without the Fishman system. But, after owning 10 Martin D-28 style dreads, I know them well. This is one of the best sounding ones, and it has a Fishman system. It has very deep bass. As a side note, I prefer the older F1 system, but could not find one locally, and didn’t want to take a chance on a used one via internet order. The new system is capable of a good tone, but it’s not as versatile.

4. All active pickups add weight. But, weight alone does not change the responsiveness of the guitar by default. It depends on where the weight is applied. Fishman seems to do a very good job of keeping the weight in the right places.

5. Keep the original saddle intact. It might sound like voodoo, but I have tested many saddle materials with the Fishman/Martin combination. Tusq, without question, sounds better when you install a Fishman Matrix in a Martin. Without the Matrix, I prefer a bone saddle.

6. I, like many here, prefer the idea of not having a UST in the guitar. My “go-to” pickup has been the K&K. But, when I play anywhere with floor monitors, the K&K will feed back at moderate to high volume. Moreover, the K&K tone is highly dependent on what you’re plugging into. Many times I have used a passive K&K into a venue’s system and gotten great results. Other times, it’s a mess. When you play with the K&K, you need to be able to accommodate a preamp or DI system that plays well with the K&K. I recently met the members of a well known americana band. They all play with K&K Trinity systems. They love that system in their stage instruments. But, they had to switch the whole band to in ear monitors to accommodate it. I introduced them to ToneDexter and told them they can pair it with a passive K&K. They are interested, but they've already committed to the new setup.

7. I have two guitars with K&K and use them with a ToneDexter. It’s an excellent plugged in tone with no degradation of acoustic tone. (Not even the few “percent” I mentioned.) It is the proverbial “unicorn”/“my guitar only louder” solution for a lot of people. However, some folks who play live need the bite and punch of a UST for their music. It’s what they are used to.

8. I play a lot of open mic, charity and showcase events and can’t (or it’s too inconvenient to) accommodate the ToneDexter more than half of the occasions. There is nothing more convenient than a gig guitar with onboard active “plug and play” system.

9. So, I have some of each. Some people who are less picky than I can be happy with a single pickup solution. I envy them. :-)

10. In addition to Fishman Aura systems, the K&K/ToneDexter pairing, I also like the LR Baggs Lyric. This on-board mic is very hit or miss depending on the instrument. But, I have had some success with it. So depending on the instrument, and my needs, I am likely to be using one of these three solutions. I've had less success with the Anthem because I perceive a degradation in acoustic tone. Others notice no difference.

11. Depending on how picky you are, you might consider the same approach. The Fishman system for one “gig” guitar and the K&K plus ToneDexter for the other. There is no substitute for hands on experience. :-)

[mustachio]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I have some relevant experience to share.

1. I also put a Matrix infinity in a long saddle custom HD28v and regretted it for the same reason. The saddle is too long and the pickup too short. I tried different mods and shims to remedy it. But, the result was the same. The guitar was quieter and had less bass. Ultimately, that guitar got a new saddle and a K&K. If this were not an issue, I would have bought the same blend system for this guitar. It appears to be great.

2. The Matrix, under a standard drop in saddle, does not really alter the sound to my ears. Maybe a few “percent” at most. I have tested this obsessively. I would argue that most people would not be able to tell the difference while playing them. Some people hear a difference after installing a UST. I’m beginning to think that the quality of the under saddle pickup installation has a lot to do with the acoustic results.

3. I have the HD-28E Retro with the new enhance system, which has about the same amount of “stuff” as the new blend system. It’s a very loud and highly resonant guitar. It’s conceivable that it could sound better without the Fishman system. But, after owning 10 Martin D-28 style dreads, I know them well. This is one of the best sounding ones, and it has a Fishman system. It has very deep bass. As a side note, I prefer the older F1 system, but could not find one locally, and didn’t want to take a chance on a used one via internet order. The new system is capable of a good tone, but it’s not as versatile.

4. All active pickups add weight. But, weight alone does not change the responsiveness of the guitar by default. It depends on where the weight is applied. Fishman seems to do a very good job of keeping the weight in the right places.

5. Keep the original saddle intact. It might sound like voodoo, but I have tested many saddle materials with the Fishman/Martin combination. Tusq, without question, sounds better when you install a Fishman Matrix in a Martin. Without the Matrix, I prefer a bone saddle.

6. I, like many here, prefer the idea of not having a UST in the guitar. My “go-to” pickup has been the K&K. But, when I play anywhere with floor monitors, the K&K will feed back at moderate to high volume. Moreover, the K&K tone is highly dependent on what you’re plugging into. Many times I have used a passive K&K into a venue’s system and gotten great results. Other times, it’s a mess. When you play with the K&K, you need to be able to accommodate a preamp or DI system that plays well with the K&K. I recently met the members of a well known americana band. They all play with K&K Trinity systems. They love that system in their stage instruments. But, they had to switch the whole band to in ear monitors to accommodate it. I introduced them to ToneDexter and told them they can pair it with a passive K&K. They are interested, but they've already committed to the new setup.

7. I have two guitars with K&K and use them with a ToneDexter. It’s an excellent plugged in tone with no degradation of acoustic tone. (Not even the few “percent” I mentioned.) It is the proverbial “unicorn”/“my guitar only louder” solution for a lot of people. However, some folks who play live need the bite and punch of a UST for their music. It’s what they are used to.

8. I play a lot of open mic, charity and showcase events and can’t (or it’s too inconvenient to) accommodate the ToneDexter more than half of the occasions. There is nothing more convenient than a gig guitar with onboard active “plug and play” system.

9. So, I have some of each. Some people who are less picky than I can be happy with a single pickup solution. I envy them. :-)

10. In addition to Fishman Aura systems, the K&K/ToneDexter pairing, I also like the LR Baggs Lyric. This on-board mic is very hit or miss depending on the instrument. But, I have had some success with it. So depending on the instrument, and my needs, I am likely to be using one of these three solutions. I've had less success with the Anthem because I perceive a degradation in acoustic tone. Others notice no difference.

11. Depending on how picky you are, you might consider the same approach. The Fishman system for one “gig” guitar and the K&K plus ToneDexter for the other. There is no substitute for hands on experience. :-)

Thanks for the reply. And it was a no nonsense reply at that! I ended up putting the Blend in my new HD-28 2018 yesterday. I can hear the difference with undersaddle pickups unplugged. The resonance or 3D DOES get slightly altered. Also, the weight changes. The key, IMO, is for the repair tech to use a belt sander to the saddle for the most even edge that remains in contact. AND, I might add, why I got the Blend system is exactly for simplicity’s sake. Most of the time I’m in a situation where I can’t set up my whole rig, therefore, I need the mic for the most natural sound possible.

I hate K&Ks. To middy. And not enough volume/power even with a preamp (and tried them all). Plus, plugging into a board directly is a nightmare for sound guys with K&Ks.

The biggest change was the distribution of the weight of my dread. It sounds just as good as it did without the pickup (luckily) and that new Infinity mic is fantastic (and discrete).

In the end, I knew that the 000 wouldn’t fill the space I needed. While playing solo I need those sympathetic overtones that dreads project, especially with sus2 and 4 chords. Plus, I travel more with my 000 than with my dread. Having a pickup system in a guitar that’s going to be beat up more, played outside more is going to less to go wrong with it. Today for example, I played the 000 by a friends pool in 90 heat. The double sided tape would’ve melted off.

[martingitdave]

Thanks for following up and sharing your experience. Sounds like you’re getting similar results to my new HD-28E Retro. Congrats. But, I’m confused as to how much change you observed in your guitar after installing the blend system.