Is there a shift away from luthier-built guitars happening?

[gitarro]

My purpose in promoting the idea of luthier made guitars is to perhaps stir up the interest of maybe some buyers of factory guitars who are intrigued by the idea to perhaps try out a guitar made by a solo luthier. Although North america has the greatest concentration of steel string luthiers in the world, the number rof people ordering and even playing a luthier made guitar will always be very smal compared to the total number of guitar buyers and lutherie is a tough gig and most of them will never achieve the sort of fame and financial success as Jim Olson and this golden age of lutherie as always needs customers to keep it going.

[Kitkatjoe]

This thread needs some simplifying 😴. Willie and trigger😂. Enjoy your guitar and let it become part of you.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Kitkatjoe

This thread needs some simplifying 😴. Willie and trigger😂. Enjoy your guitar and let it become part of you.

Your sentiment to enjoy playing our guitar till it becomes an extension of ourselves is entirely correct and true, though that is always applicable to any guitar and if that is the only thing worth saying about guitars then this forum and all guitar forums would need to close.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by gitarro

It is of course possible for a given martin or Taylor guitar to sound as good as the better luthier made guitars but the vast majority of their production would be merely average or satisfactory because again they are a factory and they are not optimising for tone at all in their processes. So for all their history Martin has the same tonal issues as any other factory. But no doubt they build a high quality product and has succeeded in marketing that product successfully for 150 years to such a degree that many people desire a martin because it was played by their musical heroes etc.

I dont know enough of Ryan's building methodology to comment but you are right in that Olson uses batch building, CNC for the necks and for other easily reproducible parts, and a very extensive jig collection to build more guitars than any othe solo luthier at any one time.

However IMHO what makes for a "cookie cutter" or factory guitar isnt using such techniques. It is the whether there is individualised attention to optimising the tone of each guitar vis a cis the variable nature of the woods used. Probably no luthiers use such techniques to such a degree as olson but most luthiers use jigs and batch building for example. Some use cnc for the necks and bridges also.

But gitarro...the vast majority of guitar players...myself included, and I am a fairly decent player...are not good enough technically, to really work a guitar to the limits of it's tonal/dynamic capabilities, and this includes the owners of the high end/ultra high end boutique and solo luthier guitars...again myself included...so the great majority of high end boutique or solo luthier guitars...whatever high performance abilities they possess, are never going to be used...and in reality...the vast majority of players, even those who own ultra high end luthier made instruments...could use a basic mid level Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Guild, Takamine, Yamaha...or whatever have you brand name factory guitar...and have MORE than enough instrument in their hands relative to their "chops" to play them.

Sure, if you have the loot, you can buy whatever you want, but just like in golf...a $500 driver ain't gonna make a $5 swing into a $500 swing, and thus a $5 dollar shot into a $500 dollar shot. A $15K custom luthier made guitar is not gonna make anyone play and sound just like Andy McKee or Pierre Bensusan or Tommy E...anymore than a Martin D-28 or Gibson J-45 would.

Lot's of folks rag on good basic factory guitars, extolling the virtues of much higher end boutique or solo luthier guitars, when in their hands, you could never tell one from the other, and neither could they.

As far as James Olson...James is not a big believer in tap tuning and individual voicing, and currently he just builds his SJ's to a basic "factory" set of spec's...just like Martin, Taylor, Gibson...et al...that he has worked out over the years, that yields him the basic overarching SJ/JT tone that Olson fans covet. He also used to not really be a big believer in the inherent greatness of Brazilian over EIR, and has said so...in the past...in a number of articles through the years. Maybe he has changed his mind now that he mostly builds with Braz, as that is what his customers want, but JT's original SJ that is still his main guitar is EIR back and sides, and everyone seems quite fine with the tone that JT gets out of that wonderful guitar.

So James Olson is really a one man factory, building in factory style batches or runs of guitars. Yes, he builds to an extremely high level of quality and uses just Best of the Best materials, but make no mistake, he is a factory, building to factory spec. In his case, it does happen to be a most excellent set of spec's, and just like any guitar factory, James makes great ones, and good ones, and average ones, and even the occasional "slug" just like any other builder, factory, boutique or solo luthier. But, as Mr. Olson has also said many times, if one person doesn't like the tone of a given guitar, someone else will come along who loves it. How true!

And again...for most of us as players...a lot of the tone that we hear when we play a guitar is not so entirely much the guitar, as it is us, the player, and the tone we create from that guitar via our technique, that we bring to bear on the instrument. Much of the tonal performance failing of any given guitar is less the guitars inherent tonal capability limitations, than it is the tonal capability limitations of WE the players technical ability, to bring out the best of said guitar.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"....so to speak {;-)


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[dereklaney]

Yes. You’re right.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by CoffeeFan

And, at the end of the day, what do you have? A really nice guitar.

What makes an Olson worth $20,000 more than, say a Taylor 914ce? Sure, it's a wonderful instrument, but twenty grand? I found a used one on the web for $36,000.

I paid less for my Mercedes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not demeaning the guitars, those who build them or those who buy them. But these guitars aren't magic. They're guitars, and the prices of some of them undoubtedly drive some people away...

Demand. Demand. Demand.

Olson is insanely popular and his price tag is thus inflated. If he charged reasonable priced, he'd have a 20 year waiting list.

[gitarro]

Hello Duff

Let me use an analogy. I don't need a BMW. My very basic driving skills do not merit a BMW and I would never exploit its full capabilities. But I drove one once and I enjoyed it immensely and it was so much fun to drive.

Similarly you dont need to be martin Simpson or tommy emmanuel playing some incredibly difficult and complex piece to appreciate a really good acoustic guitar. A superior guitar gives you heaps more sonic enjoyment compared to a lesser guitar even while playing a simple arpeggio or playing a simple tune.

Contrary to your view, I do think that ordinary folks can tell the difference between the tone of a lesser and better acoustic guitar and I have done so with all the luthier made guitars I have tried and played. I can tell the difference in the depth, timbre, tonal bloom, responsiveness, clarity, roundness and fulness of the notes, and quality of the overtones, fatness of the fundamental and I am quite ordinary in my ear. There are levels and I can tell the better luthier made ones from the ones that are not providing as good feedback as a player. Of course if you are in the audience it is harder to tell one guirar from another but isnt it so much easier to appreciate how much more open and responsive and rich sounding one acoustic can be from another by playing it?

That's what it boils down to me for me.

That is also why I utterly reject the idea that unless I am a guitar genius I do not deserve to buy a good guitar. It would be a truly drab and colourless world if we could only have things that we had to pre qualify for in terms of skill because as if you do not even deserve your martin and gibson so better sell then and go and buy a guitar that best fits your level like a Zager! LOL so if we want to be self consistent with suh a philosophy then we need to sell off every Taylor or martin or guild and buy cheap made in china or Korea solid top and laminate body guitars !

On Olson, I make no comment on whether he voices his guitsrs or not as there seems to be a lack of consensus on this point on the forums. However why use Olson as an example as he is an outlier if he doesnt use individual voicing techniques. Every other famous luthier fetching 20k plus prices practices individual voicing... Look at the guitars of somogyi and traugott and walker for example - the results speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

But gitarro...the vast majority of guitar players...myself included, and I am a fairly decent player...are not good enough technically, to really work a guitar to the limits of it's tonal/dynamic capabilities, and this includes the owners of the high end/ultra high end boutique and solo luthier guitars...again myself included...so the great majority of high end boutique or solo luthier guitars...whatever high performance abilities they possess, are never going to be used...and in reality...the vast majority of players, even those who own ultra high end luthier made instruments...could use a basic mid level Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Guild, Takamine, Yamaha...or whatever have you brand name factory guitar...and have MORE than enough instrument in their hands relative to their "chops" to play them.

Sure, if you have the loot, you can buy whatever you want, but just like in golf...a $500 driver ain't gonna make a $5 swing into a $500 swing, and thus a $5 dollar shot into a $500 dollar shot. A $15K custom luthier made guitar is not gonna make anyone play and sound just like Andy McKee or Pierre Bensusan or Tommy E...anymore than a Martin D-28 or Gibson J-45 would.

Lot's of folks rag on good basic factory guitars, extolling the virtues of much higher end boutique or solo luthier guitars, when in their hands, you could never tell one from the other, and neither could they.

As far as James Olson...James is not a big believer in tap tuning and individual voicing, and currently he just builds his SJ's to a basic "factory" set of spec's...just like Martin, Taylor, Gibson...et al...that he has worked out over the years, that yields him the basic overarching SJ/JT tone that Olson fans covet. He also used to not really be a big believer in the inherent greatness of Brazilian over EIR, and has said so...in the past...in a number of articles through the years. Maybe he has changed his mind now that he mostly builds with Braz, as that is what his customers want, but JT's original SJ that is still his main guitar is EIR back and sides, and everyone seems quite fine with the tone that JT gets out of that wonderful guitar.

So James Olson is really a one man factory, building in factory style batches or runs of guitars. Yes, he builds to an extremely high level of quality and uses just Best of the Best materials, but make no mistake, he is a factory, building to factory spec. In his case, it does happen to be a most excellent set of spec's, and just like any guitar factory, James makes great ones, and good ones, and average ones, and even the occasional "slug" just like any other builder, factory, boutique or solo luthier. But, as Mr. Olson has also said many times, if one person doesn't like the tone of a given guitar, someone else will come along who loves it. How true!

And again...for most of us as players...a lot of the tone that we hear when we play a guitar is not so entirely much the guitar, as it is us, the player, and the tone we create from that guitar via our technique, that we bring to bear on the instrument. Much of the tonal performance failing of any given guitar is less the guitars inherent tonal capability limitations, than it is the tonal capability limitations of WE the players technical ability, to bring out the best of said guitar.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"....so to speak {;-)


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Let me use an analogy. I don't need a BMW. My very basic driving skills do not merit a BMW and I would never exploit its full capabilities. But I drove one once and I enjoyed it immensely and it was so much fun to drive.

I love this analogy but I feel you're off the mark a bit on what's what.

A BMW is a very fine automobile, but it is actually a fairly pedestrian one. It's the stereotypical "nice car" that a reasonably affluent person can afford. The parking lots at my work are loaded with them, and I'm not talking about the VP parking area - regular folks in white collar, college educated jobs are slinging Bimmers.

A BMW or Mercedes is actually our high quality Martin, Taylor, etc.!

The luthier guitars we're discussing are Ferrari, Lamborghini, and into the realm of stratospheric exotica such as McLaren or Bugatti. Cars that cost between very expensive and "are you kidding me?!" - and are absurdly fast and luxurious. They are harder to procure and exclusive.

The thing is; that BMW/Mercedes is a **** nice car which nearly any enthusiast would enjoy - inspiring performance (faster than we can legally drive), great smelling leather interior, tightly and cleanly built, etc. - a great deal of enjoyment and pride of ownership come from these vehicles.

The exotic cars offer mind-blowing performance and will turn heads aplenty, but they come with quirks and inconveniences that can be a deterrent to ownership (besides the massive price). Drive in the snow? Air conditioning on a blistering summer day? Decent fuel economy?! Not the car for most people, or for barely anyone really.

Taks and Yamahas... Have you seen a contemporary Camry or Accord lately? Beautiful cars, tons of features, reliable transportation... albeit ubiquitous and not particularly inspiring for a true enthusiast.

Remember, this thread is about the market demand for these different products, not which one is "better." Applies to both cars and guitars.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Similarly you dont need to be martin Simpson or tommy emmanuel playing some incredibly difficult and complex piece to appreciate a really good acoustic guitar. A superior guitar gives you heaps more sonic enjoyment compared to a lesser guitar even while playing a simple arpeggio or playing a simple tune.

At the very least, a great neck, setup, and fret work make songs easier to play. It's also easier on the hands. I used to like higher end electrics so I could play fast when I was younger. 20 some years later, it's more about playing with comfort.

It's true to a certain extent that store brand guitars can play better. I find that many of the handmade guitars are more responsive, which isn't always something a setup can fix.

Originally Posted by gitarro

Contrary to your view, I do think that ordinary folks can tell the difference between the tone of a lesser and better acoustic guitar and I have done so with all the luthier made guitars I have tried and played. I can tell the difference in the depth, timbre, tonal bloom, responsiveness, clarity, roundness and fulness of the notes, and quality of the overtones, fatness of the fundamental and I am quite ordinary in my ear. There are levels and I can tell the better luthier made ones from the ones that are not providing as good feedback as a player. Of course if you are in the audience it is harder to tell one guirar from another but isnt it so much easier to appreciate how much more open and responsive and rich sounding one acoustic can be from another by playing it?

I have a few guitars that are just plain easy to sound great. I was once asked if I ever played professionally. I was having a good night, but I didn't understand how good my guitar was until I heard someone else play it a few days ago. A simple melody on a great guitar can make a hobbyist like me sound amazing.

[gitarro]

Well I have never driven a Ferrari or Lamborghini or even a Porsche so I cannot comment on the experience. I dont think sports cars are appropriate at all as part of this analogy though vs honda and Toyota cars because as you said they r quirky and difficult to drive for an average person and they are temperamental in the kind of traffic jam or bumpy road that a Toyota would lap up. They also have very limited seating far passengers and little space for baggage so they cannot function as substitutes for toyotas and Honda's at all.

On the other hand there is nothing quirky or temperamental or eccentric about the performance of luthier made guitars vs factory guitars. The former can do everything the latter can do at least as well and usually a good deal better. So the bmw or Mercedes can function well as analogy for luthier made guitars because they can do the day to day things a Honda can do just as well but can give you a more spirited driving experience better than the honda or Toyota can. The Honda or toyota would be the analogy for your Martin's or taylors.

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I love this analogy but I feel you're off the mark a bit on what's what.

A BMW is a very fine automobile, but it is actually a fairly pedestrian one. It's the stereotypical "nice car" that a reasonably affluent person can afford. The parking lots at my work are loaded with them, and I'm not talking about the VP parking area - regular folks in white collar, college educated jobs are slinging Bimmers.

A BMW or Mercedes is actually our high quality Martin, Taylor, etc.!

The luthier guitars we're discussing are Ferrari, Lamborghini, and into the realm of stratospheric exotica such as McLaren or Bugatti. Cars that cost between very expensive and "are you kidding me?!" - and are absurdly fast and luxurious. They are harder to procure and exclusive.

The thing is; that BMW/Mercedes is a **** nice car which nearly any enthusiast would enjoy - inspiring performance (faster than we can legally drive), great smelling leather interior, tightly and cleanly built, etc. - a great deal of enjoyment and pride of ownership come from these vehicles.

The exotic cars offer mind-blowing performance and will turn heads aplenty, but they come with quirks and inconveniences that can be a deterrent to ownership (besides the massive price). Drive in the snow? Air conditioning on a blistering summer day? Decent fuel economy?! Not the car for most people, or for barely anyone really.

Taks and Yamahas... Have you seen a contemporary Camry or Accord lately? Beautiful cars, tons of features, reliable transportation... albeit ubiquitous and not particularly inspiring for a true enthusiast.

Remember, this thread is about the market demand for these different products, not which one is "better." Applies to both cars and guitars.

[Carmel Cedar]

Originally Posted by bho

I have noticed that, for several months now, the general discussion forum on the AGF has had more questions around or mentions of the large guitar manufacturers (e.g. Martin, Collings, Taylor...) A few years back, there were many more mentions of luthier-built guitars.

Could be that folks owning luthier-built guitars are spending more time playing them than posting on AGF, vs owners of large guitar manufacturers...

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Carmel Cedar

Could be that folks owning luthier-built guitars are spending more time playing them than posting on AGF, vs owners of large guitar manufacturers...

nope...quite the opposite actually...

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by CoffeeFan

And, at the end of the day, what do you have? A really nice guitar.

What makes an Olson worth $20,000 more than, say a Taylor 914ce? Sure, it's a wonderful instrument, but twenty grand? I found a used one on the web for $36,000.

I paid less for my Mercedes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not demeaning the guitars, those who build them or those who buy them. But these guitars aren't magic. They're guitars, and the prices of some of them undoubtedly drive some people away...

Everything you just said about Olsons would also apply to that Mercedes you're driving.

[fitness1]

From my perspective I think quite the opposite.

Well funded baby boomers are keeping the solo builders quite busy, and for good reason - you can get exactly what you want in regard to wood choices, ergonomic choices (bevels, wedges, fan frets, etc) and nut/saddle spacing (a big one for me) and add-ons like ports and aesthetic touches.

All this and typically a better sounding instrument.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by fitness1

From my perspective I think quite the opposite.

Well funded baby boomers are keeping the solo builders quite busy, and for good reason - you can get exactly what you want in regard to wood choices, ergonomic choices (bevels, wedges, fan frets, etc) and nut/saddle spacing (a big one for me) and add-ons like ports and aesthetic touches.

All this and typically a better sounding instrument.

Well funded baby boomers are keeping the entire acoustic guitar manufacturing market quite busy...for about another 5 to 10 years...but somewhere about year 5 from now the slowdown is really going to begin in earnest, and it is going to hit the high end custom factory, boutique builder and solo luthier market first and hardest...and continue on gaining momentum...the wrong kind of "MO"...as the years pass by.

For some perspective...

At the last Healdsburg Festival in 2013, a very prominent luthier, well known to many folks here, was going around at the festival, talking quietly with luthiers behind the scenes, as it were, about how to increase their business, their orders, as there was considerable concern among the "body luthier" about how business was slowing and luthiers were losing business to the larger factories...Martin/Taylor/Gibson etc...who were upping their games with Custom/BTO Shops/options and better "bang for the buck...ie lower prices/high quality/more convenience" than what luthiers were able to offer, or were offering as a whole.

This luthier was going around talking with builders about marketing techniques, how to get their product more visibility out in the general market, and building stripped down, lower priced guitars that could compete in the Custom/BTO market, price wise, with the large Factories and Boutique factories.

This luthier was doing this because of all the other luthiers that had been talking to and with them about the drop off in their business and what to do about it, so they felt compelled to try and dive in and see what was going on in the market, and what ideas could be culled out of the data, to figure out options to deal with the issues.

Even in 2013, luthiers were starting to feel the pinch as the boomers were just beginning to ease off the throttle a wee bit, and spend less money ordering guitars, and spending less money when they did order guitars...ordering custom shop factory rather than solo luthier in more and more cases.

The "Elephant in the Room"...the demise of the "Boomer Market"...is already sitting in a corner of the room. Mostly quiet for the moment, but definitely starting to stretch and getting ready to get up and leave the room entirely not too much longer from now...

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher